From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #112 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, June 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 112 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: D&D Magic in RQ - full rules (almost) Re: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars/Runequest:Slayers Re: [RQ-RULES] Hello guys, How do i know HW draft? [RQ-RULES] Dragon Pass Digest Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars/Runequest:Slayers [RQ-RULES] Small note on Harrek Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 18:04:02 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: D&D Magic in RQ - full rules (almost) Hibbs, Philip wrote: > > Wizardry (0%) Magic > The apprentice wizard's Magic bonus can only at most double his ability > in this skill. This looks alot like the system by the Ouija that I've used in my campaign. For those who don't have web access, I can send you a nicely formatted Word file of the exact rules (or you can get it from his site). Basically, it looks like a cross between Sandy's sorcery and divine magic, in that you expend POW to learn (memorize) the spell, then use skills to manipulate it's intensity, range, potency, etc.. Let's you leave the spell descriptions/power level mostly intact, as the traditional 3d6 fireball would cost 3 POW to learn and around 6 mp to cast, with mimimum range, etc.. > Wow, I didn't expect to get that much done, that's almost a complete system, > and I don't even know D&D that well! Anyone got any ideas on how to do > specialists? (Using the Ouija's system) I gave them straight bonuses to skill %ages in learning spells, and free manipulation levels to their chosen schools. (2 for chosen school, 1 for each associated school). - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - I *am* one of the Chosen Few! ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 TANJ Lives! - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 18:10:19 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars/Runequest:Slayers stancliff@commnections.com wrote: > > It is certain to not use RQ3 as a base, whether any of it can be > salvaged is up to the creativity of gm's. Personally, I'm interested in seeing their mechaanism for combining glyphs to form runes... I'll buy the game just to pick that mechanism apart for ideas. > The saddest aspect of all of this is that the game we know and play > is now totally unsupported. It will take 5 - 8 years to die out, but it > is now just a collectors item (well worn)! Yes, but eventually, the "copyright" on the rules system will expire, even if the name is still in use. Someone (one of us, even) is likely to salvage the RQ3 system and put it out under another name. (Is that possible? Or does Chaosium technically still own the BRP derivative system? A lawyer I'm not.) - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - I *am* one of the Chosen Few! ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 TANJ Lives! - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 18:17:49 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hello guys, How do i know HW draft? Mamoru Kurihara wrote: > > Please let me know Hero Wars rules specific digest, if not bound by NDA. While I'm sure that there will eventually be a HW specific list, it hasn't been created yet. Perhaps in a few more months. - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - I *am* one of the Chosen Few! ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 TANJ Lives! - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:50:29 EDT From: Delecti@aol.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Dragon Pass Digest << Hmmm, different opinions as to whether or not to post DP & NG questions here. >> There is a DP mailing list that would love your questions. Contact: Robert McArthur Dragon Pass Digest mcarthur@fit.qut.edu.au Ask to be added Delecti, Lord of the Upland Marsh aka Scott Knowles RL, USA Coordinator for The Chaos Society http://members.aol.com/delecti/UpMarsh.html Delecti@aol.com http://members.aol.com/Glorantha/chaossoc.html ChaosSociety@juno.com Beta Test:v. To voluntarily entrust one's data, one's livelihood and one's sanity to hardware or software intended to destroy all three. In earlier days, virgins were used to beta test volcanoes. - -The New Hackers' Dictionary *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:08 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RU>I'm trying to do HeroQuesting IMG from a heroic wargaming perspective. RU>This means that one man can fight an army. The way I've worked my rules out, RU>pushes the upper end of the scale into four-figuresLand. This isn't complete RU>playtested, so I could be wrong about my own system, though ... RU>Don't think I am ... I think that my prime point here was that the system doesn't require extreme experience levels. If you go that far, then you have to change rules to allow players to suddenly gain huge amounts of experience to get them into the new game system. By bringing the God Time creatures down to a moderately high level, the characters can use the normal rules and not have to learn as much of a new system or bend as many rules. It isn't hard to take a Sword of Humakt with 90% skills, iron armor, and good spells, and incapacitate two to four normal people per round. Give him six friends with at least 75% abilities and good magic and they can cut their way across a primitive or medieval battlefield where the most common fighter is a peasant farmer with less than 50% and weak armor. You have instant hero with friends. when he meets another Lord, you have a grand pass of arms that will be described in epics. RU>There are many different kinds of Heroes. Some, like the iron diamond dwarfs RU>Greater Hydra, Mother of Monsters, Crimson Bat, Gonn Orta etc... live in RU>four-figureLand (in RQ terms). The module writers admitted when they wrote the horrors in Elder Secrets that they wanted monsters so big and bad, that no player could ever compete against them. That was the primary reason for them being given those stats. It also gives a rough idea how good they expect the gods to be, since they are contemporaries. As I mentioned before, most of the really BIG monsters have a several hundred % bonus added in for sheer size... it is very hard to miss when your attack hits the target hex and the 2-hex radius around it. The Diamond Dwarves are just plain over-rated... when you have done something long enough, it becomes very hard to find something new to learn about it. What has happened is that the HeroQuest gm's have made new systems just to allow monsters like these to be killed in normal combat. It violates the intended power levels of the world in terms of skill levels. In terms of magical abilities, they are probably much closer to expectation. RU>> Have you given up running combat? RU>Only rarely enjoy it, but no of course ... Playing 36th level AD&D, where y RU>got a priestess character, each round taking about four hours of play, and y RU>statement of intent is "I cast Heal" 'cos someone in the party *is* gonna ne RU>at the end of the round, and having about nine Heal spells in memory and a d RU>scrolls, really takes the enjoyment out of protracted and detailed combat .. RU>guys with the fighter characters didn't mind it, though ... I always ran mages, because they had choices and options. As a wargamer myself, I couldn't stand the limited roles of most classes. It is interesting that the Chaosium guys have started using the word Simulationist. One of the first editions of Different Worlds ran an article dividing all RPG gamers into Role-Players, Story-Tellers, War-Gamers, and Power-Gamers. RQ, like most of the first generation RPG's, is basically designed to be a wargame at the combat level with a natural attraction for power-gamers as well. The other two aspects will downplay combat situations and concentrate more on who the character is or what is happening around them. Most new players start as power-gamers, and as they mature, they find new aspects of the game and the world that let them shift into some other mindset. I have always been a wargamer, which is probably why I like RQ and Champions better than any other games released. I blended into the power-gamer nature when I started playing RPG's, but I burned out on D&D and started shifting toward story-telling. I will have a hard time adjusting to the new games, but it isn't impossible since I love Glorantha so much. RU>> Do you just abstract the results? RU>RPG combat is abstract anyway ... Copout. A combat system abstracts real life down to a large set of die rolls. I was asking if you abstract the combat system to a decision or a small set of die rolls... do you play it out or skip over it. The Hero Wars post suggests that they will abstract the Heroic combat to a small set of die rolls that have nothing to do with individual swings, impales, crits, or any of the details that go into the RQ3 combat system. If it ends up the way it was implied in the posts, then I see a good point for using RQ3 to do initial advancement to 75% or so and using the new system for story overview and high level combat. I believe that when RQ first came out, it was understood very early that once players made rune level, they would basically drop out of play, new characters would be started, and the old ones would be trotted out for special events. RQ was the game preparing for the Hero Wars, it was never intended for the HW's themselves. All of Greg's HeroQuest false starts have been an attempt to graft more or better story telling concepts to the existing wargame. They work within narrow limits, but have yet to be satisfying. This time they seem to be dumping the wargame and going just with the other aspects. RU>> to push for Acolyte status. In the third year you get several Leader RU>> types and the Rune Levels start to appear. We are in the fourth year RU>> and no one has enough masteries yet to make Rune Lord. RU>nineteen year olds, right? I feel like resting my case at this point. But that isn't the whole picture. Tradesmen are driven to be Craft Masters, Thieves are driven to be Stealth masters, PC's are driven to become combat masters, but Soldiers are driven by duty, not desire. In general, any PC will progress twice as fast as any NPC, because PC's are fanatically driven to a single goal (it's really not healthy) and they get more checks than NPC's. It is taking my characters 5 - 7 years to make weapon master in play, so the normal figure should be closer to 8 - 12 years for NPC's or people in general. RU>The skill ranges given in most RQ sources are unrealistically low. That is, RU>unrealistically low for a world like Glorantha. Just fine in a more RW-like RU>of course. These skill ranges work *just fine* of course in CoC !!! If it is true, then it is true everywhere, even in CoC. If you sent the game people to school at the age of six and applied the training rules for twelve years, then you would have MUCH more competent 18 year old characters than the rules system creates. A person who pays attention in school will graduate with 75 - 100% in Arithmetic, Algebra, Spoken and Written language, World Lore, and History (or Human Lore). They will have moderate skills at several other areas such as mechanics, cooking, computers, driving, or physical training. The wonderful flaw of logic that starts 15 year olds off as incompetents was perpetrated by the game creators to give players the wonderful joy of working their way up from incompetency to the thrill of adequacy. Encounters had to be proportional so that new PC's don't get whacked at the first combat. The best fix for realism would be to change the way experience is gained and start the system by the age of 6 or 7. RU>> A great-grandson (?) of Sartar (KoS) became a Rune Lord of Humakt at RU>> the age of 9 or 10 (very directed training from infancy). He formed the RU>> household of Death and took 'several' powerful gifts and geases. Two RU>> years later he and the Red Emporer kill each other in single combat. RU>> The emperor is supposed to be a hero, but was the kid? Or was he just a RU>> good Rune Lord with a few hero-questing abilities? Was he above his RU>> level, or are heros VERY good Rune Lords with some special abilities? RU>RQ experience rules don't work for hero-level play ... Only because your idea of Hero Level is much higher than mine. If a hero has base skills between 100 and 200%, then it is perfectly reasonable for the example to happen, given the vagaries of combat. I believe that what will set Hero Wars off from normal RQ is not the skill levels of the participants, but the acquisition and use of Ritual and Artifact level magics. Anyone who can hit their opponent most of the time will be able to do heroic acts if they have the knowledge and equipment. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:55:36 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars/Runequest:Slayers RU>Yes, but eventually, the "copyright" on the rules system will expire, RU>even if the name is still in use. Someone (one of us, even) is likely to RU>salvage the RQ3 system and put it out under another name. (Is that RU>possible? Or does Chaosium technically still own the BRP derivative RU>system? A lawyer I'm not.) This might take ten years or more, or someone might keep reapplying for copyright. On the other hand, I think Chaosium still owns BRP, and could resupport some aspects of the older systems if they do. It just couldn't use the RuneQuest name. Gamers like us could work with them to develop Gloranthan material under the BRP banner. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:07:18 GMT From: "N.J. EFFINGHAM" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Small note on Harrek While this probably crosses over into the GLorantha Digest, I'll keep it short: > This is an issue of scope and expectations. Harrek wasn't a hero >before he killed his god and defeated it in spirit combat and >possibly wasn't one until several years later, and Argrath was just >a bar singer in 1610 (roughly) who became a sword trainer around >1614. Yet only 6 - 8 years later they are both respected leaders of >large groups (Wolf Pirates & Brotherhood of the White Bull) when >they meet after the cradle adventure. Notice that the fight isn't >described in the same grand terms as their later fight on the Isle >of Wonder in Holy Country. It is my opinion that Argrath was a Rune >Lord and Acolyte who was HeroQuesting regularly at the time he met >Harrek (who had probably just become a Hero). Pete Metcalfe has written an excellent description of Harreks adventures abroad, mainly detailing how it is a massive HeroQuest to make him into a Hero by getting him his own Star in the Sky. I think the definition of Hero remains undefined by neccessity. Nikk Nikk Effingham eng7nje@leeds.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/7556/ "If absolute power corrupts absolutely Where does that leave God?" -- George Daacon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:27:02 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Hey, Bob, I hope your program doesn't eat up too much of this message,'cos THIS IS FUN !! > RU>I'm trying to do HeroQuesting IMG from a heroic wargaming perspective. > RU>This means that one man can fight an army. The way I've worked my rules out, > RU>pushes the upper end of the scale into four-figuresLand. This isn't complete > RU>playtested, so I could be wrong about my own system, though ... > RU>Don't think I am ... > I think that my prime point here was that the system doesn't require > extreme experience levels. If you go that far, then you have to change > rules to allow players to suddenly gain huge amounts of experience to > get them into the new game system. In fact, my game is no longer RuneQuest. > It isn't hard to take a Sword of Humakt with 90% skills, iron armor, > and good spells, and incapacitate two to four normal people per round. > Give him six friends with at least 75% abilities and good magic and they > can cut their way across a primitive or medieval battlefield where the > most common fighter is a peasant farmer with less than 50% and weak > armor. You have instant hero with friends. when he meets another Lord, > you have a grand pass of arms that will be described in epics. True, but you have to cheat by saying that standard skill levels are unrealistically low, etc.. ad nauseam. > RU>There are many different kinds of Heroes. Some, like the iron diamond dwarfs > RU>Greater Hydra, Mother of Monsters, Crimson Bat, Gonn Orta etc... live in > RU>four-figureLand (in RQ terms). > The module writers admitted when they wrote the horrors in Elder > Secrets that they wanted monsters so big and bad, that no player could > ever compete against them. That was the primary reason for them being > given those stats. It also gives a rough idea how good they expect the > gods to be, since they are contemporaries. And the gods are HQ characters, so what's wrong with rules for 'em? Anyway, just 'cos I've broadened scope IMG don't mean the PCs in the game will ever get up to Mother of Monsters level, ugh !!! I mean, that's nearly Superhero level ...Iron diamond dwarfs are a different story, 'cos they're more common ... > As I mentioned before, most > of the really BIG monsters have a several hundred % bonus added in for > sheer size... it is very hard to miss when your attack hits the target > hex and the 2-hex radius around it. The Diamond Dwarves are just plain > over-rated... when you have done something long enough, it becomes very > hard to find something new to learn about it. This is my favourite rhetorical locus of RuneQuest, and I ain't disagreeing with it.: - ) > What has happened is that the HeroQuest gm's have made new systems > just to allow monsters like these to be killed in normal combat. It > violates the intended power levels of the world in terms of skill > levels. In terms of magical abilities, they are probably much closer to > expectation. This would be a really *nice* idea, if it weren't for the unrealistically low levels of standard RQ grunts.To clarify, among the Hsunchen every adult would realistically be expected to be a Master of every cultural skill. This general mastery of skills is widespread in RW quasi stone age societies. In fact, in RuneQuest, skill Mastery isn't something which is terribly difficult to acheive, and to imply that ordinary soldiers (for example) are devoid of dedication is a cop-out. > I always ran mages, because they had choices and options. As a > wargamer myself, I couldn't stand the limited roles of most classes. It > is interesting that the Chaosium guys have started using the word > Simulationist. One of the first editions of Different Worlds ran an > article dividing all RPG gamers into Role-Players, Story-Tellers, > War-Gamers, and Power-Gamers. Yeah well I'm one of those Big Numbers Power-Gamers that the snobs of the RPG world don't like that much ... Plus, I'd like to have my cake and eat it, or be a powergamer/roleplayer/storyteller multi-classed character using wargaming rules ... > I will have a hard time > adjusting to the new games, but it isn't impossible since I love > Glorantha so much. Trying to *simulate* Glorantha is IMHO the best chance I'll ever get to have my cake and eat it ... > RU>> Do you just abstract the results? > RU>RPG combat is abstract anyway ... > Copout. A combat system abstracts real life Not Real LifeNo way Jose ... > down to a large set of > die rolls. I was asking if you abstract the combat system to a decision > or a small set of die rolls... do you play it out or skip over it. I play it, 'cos otherwise there's no game .... > The Hero Wars post suggests that they will abstract the Heroic combat > to a small set of die rolls that have nothing to do with individual > swings, impales, crits, or any of the details that go into the RQ3 > combat system. If it ends up the way it was implied in the posts, then > I see a good point for using RQ3 to do initial advancement to 75% or so > and using the new system for story overview and high level combat. Depends on the scope used IYRQ, but yeah.My own rules let me do the opposite, though, ie high level (not 200%, but more) within a RQ-like riles framework . (Maybe my point in saying this to [RQ Rules] is just that it CAN be done ...) To each his own > I believe that when RQ first came out, it was understood very early > that once players made rune level, they would basically drop out of > play, new characters would be started, and the old ones would be trotted > out for special events. always hated that idea ... > RQ was the game preparing for the Hero Wars, it > was never intended for the HW's themselves. Don't think so. HQ was, originally, concieved as a RQ supplement AFAIK. > RU>> to push for Acolyte status. In the third year you get several Leader > RU>> types and the Rune Levels start to appear. We are in the fourth year > RU>> and no one has enough masteries yet to make Rune Lord. > RU>nineteen year olds, right? I feel like resting my case at this point. > But that isn't the whole picture. Tradesmen are driven to be Craft > Masters, Thieves are driven to be Stealth masters, PC's are driven to > become combat masters, Sure, not everyone's an adventurer, but we're talking about scope, not professions .. > but Soldiers are driven by duty, not desire. In > general, any PC will progress twice as fast as any NPC, because PC's are > fanatically driven to a single goal (it's really not healthy) and they > get more checks than NPC's. It is taking my characters 5 - 7 years to > make weapon master in play, so the normal figure should be closer to 8 - > 12 years for NPC's or people in general. 23 - 27 year olds then? So it is usual for people just out of adolescence to be skills masters? Sounds right to me ... > RU>The skill ranges given in most RQ sources are unrealistically low. That is, > RU>unrealistically low for a world like Glorantha. Just fine in a more RW-like > RU>of course. These skill ranges work *just fine* of course in CoC !!! > If it is true, then it is true everywhere, even in CoC. If you sent > the game people to school at the age of six and applied the training > rules for twelve years, then you would have MUCH more competent 18 year > old characters than the rules system creates. A person who pays > attention in school will graduate with 75 - 100% in Arithmetic, Algebra, > Spoken and Written language, World Lore, and History (or Human Lore). > They will have moderate skills at several other areas such as mechanics, > cooking, computers, driving, or physical training. > The wonderful flaw of logic that starts 15 year olds off as > incompetents was perpetrated by the game creators to give players the > wonderful joy of working their way up from incompetency to the thrill of > adequacy. Encounters had to be proportional so that new PC's don't get > whacked at the first combat. The best fix for realism would be to > change the way experience is gained and start the system by the age of 6 > or 7. No. THE unrealistic game mechanic is the skills bonus for high characteristics.ie, it has far too much influence. Unrealistic, but fine, of course, for heroic fantasy IMHO. > RU>> A great-grandson (?) of Sartar (KoS) became a Rune Lord of Humakt at > RU>> the age of 9 or 10 (very directed training from infancy). He formed the > RU>> household of Death and took 'several' powerful gifts and geases. Two > RU>> years later he and the Red Emporer kill each other in single combat. > RU>> The emperor is supposed to be a hero, but was the kid? Or was he just a > RU>> good Rune Lord with a few hero-questing abilities? Was he above his > RU>> level, or are heros VERY good Rune Lords with some special abilities? > > RU>RQ experience rules don't work for hero-level play ... > Only because your idea of Hero Level is much higher than mine. Disagree. If you want heroism and realism, then you'll find NO heroes in the RW.Hero level is superhuman in nature, so balanced and logical experience rules cannot produce a hero. Heroes break the normal rules, almost by definition. > If a > hero has base skills between 100 and 200%, then it is perfectly > reasonable for the example to happen, given the vagaries of combat. I > believe that what will set Hero Wars off from normal RQ is not the skill > levels of the participants, but the acquisition and use of Ritual and > Artifact level magics. Anyone who can hit their opponent most of the > time will be able to do heroic acts if they have the knowledge and > equipment. Yes, here I can agree. But I think that we need rules that can do this QUICKLY, and 200% RQ3 doesn't. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #112 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.