From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #30 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, February 10 1999 Volume 02 : Number 030 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Multispelling Order and becoming a Broo [RQ-RULES] The Grimoire RE: [RQ-RULES] Ogres as PCs Re: [RQ-RULES] The Grimoire [RQ-RULES] poison and multispell RE: [RQ-RULES] The Grimoire [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy RE: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy Re: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy [RQ-RULES] Martial Arts Re: [RQ-RULES] Ogres as PCs RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:21:30 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: [RQ-RULES] Multispelling Order and becoming a Broo I reckon the best way to get around the multispell debate is leave it up to the individual referee. Providing the players know beforehand and he / she's relatively consistent with their interpretation it shouldn't matter. As far as I see it, there are three options: (a) Effects happen simultaneously as young Bob interprets things; (b) The caster chooses the order of spell effects happening (as the Petersonfuhrer implies in the Grimoire); (c) Choose which one happens first randomly. [There is a (d): Write a convoluted set of rules written in the smallest type face you can about what happens when and flog it as a collectable card game.] Quick Gloranthan sideline: The mighty Greg himself has publicly stated that the "take on chaos feature - become a Broo" is not how he saw things happening. I can't remember the page, but I'm fairly sure it was mentioned in a transcript in "Questlines II". [There again, do you really want to believe someone that had the amazing foresight to flog RQ to AH Racketeers inc.?] Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:46:59 -0000 From: "Mark Buckley" Subject: [RQ-RULES] The Grimoire Philip Hibbs, replying to me: >So you say they should be simultaneous, then prescribe a specific order for >them? Bizarre! I'd say as they both affect simultaneously, the reduced CON >would be used. That's evidently the way Sandy interprets the rules. Besides, >I always thought Venom should take effect 3 MR later, like all other venoms >(or was that RQ2?). Err - I thought that I was saying that the other way implied an order and that applying the effects simultaneously implied no order... Bob Stanclif: > By saying that the Con is Diminished when the Venom spell acts, IS >assigning order. When simultaneous spells hit the same target, they ignore >the effects of any other spells and all act against the initial condition >of the target, >as if they were the only spell cast<. Your lovely 'one, >two punch' requires two steps to get the necessary target condition. Yes, that's what I was originally thinking... Philip Hibbs >I'm not defeated yet! Um... Okay, let's not worry about the mechanics, lets >take it from a descriptive point of view. "I cast a spell which attacks the >target with poison, and simltaneously reduces their capability to resist >poison". From that description, I'm pretty confident about what the outcome >should be, and would feel hard done by if a referee decided against me. >Remember, this is magic, not a computer program. Multispell is effectively >taking two effects and combining them into one. Ok, that's a good argument, and I could be convinced that that is the way to do it, in that it gives a good feel to the working of the magic. I just wondered initially if there were combinations that might not be so easy to fathom out, and came to the conclusion that applying all simultaneously was the easiest solution. mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:49:37 +0000 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Ogres as PCs Rich Allen : > .......As far as I can see in the creature book, the thing that >balances the ogres greater strength is the fact that they are chaos >creatures, and are thus hunted by anyone opposed to chaos. Their need to >remain "hidden" as a race more than makes up for an extra die or two when >rolling up their strength. Assuming the character is not known to be an Ogre to the rest of the party, that argument's largely illusory. While the other PCs don't know, you effectively have no disadvantages whatsoever. If they do find out they will either turn against you, or accept you (in which case it's no disadvantage whatsoever). Lets list the disadvantages an ogre has : 1. Sharp teeth (file them flat, no problemo). 2. detects as chaotic to Storm Bullies. (If they roll their Sense Chaos successfully, and you can always claim there's another chaotic creature nearby, again no problemo to anyone with an ounce of nouse). 3. Likes eating people. Disadvantage three is the only one which really makes the grade IMHO, and even then it's hardly insurmountable. I mean really, what is the point of an ogre that doesn't eat people? It's like playing an anorexic troll, or a claustrophobic dwarf. Robert McArthur : >I don't think that ogres gain their strength mythically - it's now part >of creation...... As are the heroplane, and magic, and spirits... etc. in Glorantha at least, myths are real. >It'd be like saying "humans have two legs mythically". >Not the basis of humans having two legs really. I think it's more like "Praxians ride and eat herd beasts mythically", which they do. They and the morocanth eat their herd beasts because they won the right and powers to do so in myth. Their whole way of life is based on this and the herd men even lost their sentience for mythic reasons. This myth is still very relevant today - it's the source of the Fix and Unfix INT spells. >I would hope your heroquest doesn't take away the doubled strength. I'm afraid so. >Given that almost no Ogre *wants* to do the quest (unless they're are >illuminated or in some way enlightened away from chaos!) I'm assuming a non-caccodemon worshiping Ogre. A caccodemon cultist clearly wouldn't want to become human, but if an Ogres does want that, then their demonic vitality has to go too. The quest is Humakit in origin and severs the quester's links to caccodemon and ogreishness in general. Why would an Ogre want to do this? Perhaps it fell in love with a human, or perhaps it wishes to devote itself to a god or religion which it feels is in conflict with it's ogreish nature, such as Chalana Arroy? It's up to the player/character. >I think such a heroquest should, perhaps, leave them tied to chaos though - Oh, absolutely. Personally I have no truck with the idea of heroquests that can cleanse chaos taints. IMHO that's based on a very materialistic notion of what chaos is in Golorantha. The quester is tempted by the advantages of ogreishness and must overcome them. He is offered fabulous magical prizes if he uses his supernatural strength (instant fail if you accept), is shown a prophetic vision of a future situation where high strength might be a life-or-death deciding factor, must pass for several days with no food available but human flesh and begins to weaken - just one tiny morsel might make the difference between survival and risking destruction. Finally the questor arrives at the Hall of Humakt. A giant avatar of Humaks offers to cut away your ogre nature and you must stand firm while humakt himself slices down at you with death itself. The sword death cuts your body into two halves, which instantly become whole again. One is your ogre self with full Ogre strength. The other is your human self with mortal strength. Now it's a fight to the death between both sides of your nature, with the odds stacked on the Ogre side. If the human self wins then you get flat teeth, nolonger want to eat people, and are fully human, but you do lose the extra strength. Of course you're still tainted by chaos, but hey - there's always illumination! Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:59:42 +0000 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] The Grimoire Bob Stancliff : > By saying that the Con is Diminished when the Venom spell acts, IS >assigning order. So is saying that the venom hists the orriginal CON, then the target's con is reduced. You can't have it both ways. >When simultaneous spells hit the same target, they ignore >the effects of any other spells and all act against the initial condition >of the target, >as if they were the only spell cast<. This is assuming that spell effects are truly instantaneous in a literal sense, as aginast in the context of an artificial game turn sequence. We're faced with a failiure of the rules mechanics. Neither interpretation of which effect occurs first complies with the rules exactly as written, so we have to make a choice. Since Sandy actualy wrote the rules I'm inclined to accept his interpretation of them, but of course individual GMs are responsible for their own campaigns so they have the last word. I suppose you could always match the venom POT against the average of the target's initial and diminished CON? Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:04:17 -0600 From: Steve Lieb Subject: [RQ-RULES] poison and multispell >I'm not defeated yet! Um... Okay, let's not worry about the mechanics, lets >take it from a descriptive point of view. "I cast a spell which attacks the >target with poison, and simltaneously reduces their capability to resist >poison". From that description, I'm pretty confident about what the outcome >should be, and would feel hard done by if a referee decided against me. >Remember, this is magic, not a computer program. Multispell is effectively >taking two effects and combining them into one. /delurk For my $.02, I'd rule as a GM that the defense reducing spell MUST precede the offensive spell. Simultanaeity doesn't help. Now, if the poison spell were persistent (I don't have the books with me, so it might be) such that there's an initial poison attack, and then subsequent ones on later rounds, the person's CON would be at full for the initial (simultaneous) attack, but then obviously lower for the later effects. If the spell doesn't do such a thing, well, that'd be a perfect thing for the player to research as a new spell, eh? Increasing the $.02 to $.05: personally, I despise the "1 point per additional spell" interpretation of Multispell. I think it invites rules-lawyering. I *am* a rules lawyer sometimes and even I dislike it's potential for abuse. /lurk - -Steve Lieb styopa@iname.com steve@necadon.com http://surf.to/styopa *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:06:01 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] The Grimoire >I just wondered initially if there were combinations that might >not be so easy to fathom out, and came to the conclusion that >applying all simultaneously was the easiest solution. If it were Drain Soul, then it could be trickier, because this doesn't make it easier for the other spell to take effect as they both ride on a single MP roll. One way of explaining the Diminish Con & Venom combo it is that the MP roll happens, then both spells take effect, then you do the Venom vs CON roll. CON is, by this stage, diminished. Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:50:17 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy >(b) The caster chooses the order of spell effects happening >(as the Petersonfuhrer implies in the Grimoire); >The mighty Greg himself has publicly stated ... >There again, do you really want to believe someone that had the >amazing foresight to flog RQ to AH Racketeers inc.? I know, this is shamelessly off topic, and I promise it's my last (for today): Sandy only really understands *how* things work in Glorantha Greg only really understands *why* things work the way they do in Glorantha Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:19:19 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy Maybe we ought to arrange for them to mate and cultivate the offspring? Ash -----Original Message----- From: Hibbs, Philip [mailto:philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk] Sent: 10 February 1999 16:50 To: 'RQ Rules Digest' Subject: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy >(b) The caster chooses the order of spell effects happening >(as the Petersonfuhrer implies in the Grimoire); >The mighty Greg himself has publicly stated ... >There again, do you really want to believe someone that had the >amazing foresight to flog RQ to AH Racketeers inc.? I know, this is shamelessly off topic, and I promise it's my last (for today): Sandy only really understands *how* things work in Glorantha Greg only really understands *why* things work the way they do in Glorantha Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:13:25 -0000 From: "Dom Twist" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy Now that is a scary idea......it would probably have tentacles - -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Munday To: runequest-rules@MPGN.COM Date: 10 February 1999 17:21 Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy >Maybe we ought to arrange for them to mate and cultivate the offspring? > >Ash > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hibbs, Philip [mailto:philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk] > Sent: 10 February 1999 16:50 > To: 'RQ Rules Digest' > Subject: [RQ-RULES] Greg vs Sandy > > >(b) The caster chooses the order of spell effects >happening > >(as the Petersonfuhrer implies in the Grimoire); > > >The mighty Greg himself has publicly stated ... > >There again, do you really want to believe someone that had >the > >amazing foresight to flog RQ to AH Racketeers inc.? > > I know, this is shamelessly off topic, and I promise it's my >last (for > today): > > Sandy only really understands *how* things work in Glorantha > Greg only really understands *why* things work the way they >do in Glorantha > > Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone > those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools > of thought to which I may be affiliated. > http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ > Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. > > >*************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to >majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:29:30 +0100 From: Alain.RAMEAU@total.com (Alain RAMEAU) Subject: [RQ-RULES] Martial Arts I would like to use the BRP system in a modern cinematic type campaign. Did one of you design detailed martial art rules for Ruenquest, and if yes are they available on the web ? AFAIK, there is no such rules in the other games based on the BRP system (Cthulhu, Nephilim.. (other ?)). Alain www.btinternet.com/~karamo/rqgb.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:29:36 -0000 From: "Dom Twist" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Ogres as PCs >Assuming the character is not known to be an Ogre to the rest of the >party, that argument's largely illusory. Ok this may be true for your player party. But what about all those High Power Storm Bull and other Orlanthi that keep croping up all the time (if I were GMing a group with a Ogre in it they'd show up a LOT.) >Lets list the disadvantages an ogre has : > >1. Sharp teeth (file them flat, no problemo). >2. detects as chaotic to Storm Bullies. (If they roll their Sense Chaos >successfully, and you can always claim there's another chaotic creature >nearby, again no problemo to anyone with an ounce of nouse). Imagine a particularly powerfull Storm Bull. Imagine he's a persistant character. The role playing of his increasing suspisions and player attempts to put them off would be excellent RPGing. >3. Likes eating people. > A trail of disapeared people and accusations of chaos could soon have villager's out with torches...with the whole party except the one Ogre protesting their bewildered innocence. Fun Fun Fun. Still I would nae let a player run a ogre IMG (at least not yet). DT *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #30 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.