From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #44 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, March 3 1999 Volume 02 : Number 044 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks [RQ-RULES] writing spells [RQ-RULES] spells and writing RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets the Ressurecti RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets the Ressurecti Re: [RQ-RULES] recording sorcery Re: [RQ-RULES] writing spells Re: [RQ-RULES] writing spells RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:04:31 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks You always keep the casting skill you have in a spell, however you have the spell memorised - matrix, using a point of free intelligence, familar, intellect spirit. If someone looses their matrix or intellect spirit binding enchantment, do they loose their skill in the spell? Nope, even if they can't actually cast the spell while they're not in contact with their matrix or intellect spirit. What the rules don't say is how you go about the relearning and how long it takes, that's why I tried making the learning of spells easier for people who had already gained a skill in casting the spell. The original rules should have made far more explicit the separation between "whatever it is that takes up Free INT" and "The skill in using the thing that takes up Free INT." Think of the Free INT used to memorise a spell to be a tool and the spell skill to be the skill in using that tool. If the sorcerer doesn't have the spell memorised, he hasn't got the tool handy, but could still use it as effectively if he did. Ash PS: I can't remember exactly it says that anyone can use a sorcery spell matrix and develop a skill in casting the spell, but I have a feeling it's in the ritual magic chapter under spell matrix enchantment. - -----Original Message----- From: Rich Allen [mailto:rico@mindspring.com] Sent: 03 March 1999 02:01 To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks >> "Also, can't a magician choose to forget a spell, wait a while, relearn it >> and still have the same % in the skill (maybe with a penalty)? > > For what it's worth, that's what the rules say, before they were Sandied > into their current form. Sorcerers can also develop a skill with a spell they > don't know even if they can get hold of a matrix for it. I'm sorry, where does it say this in the rules? We created out spellbook rules specifically because we couldn't find anywhere in RQ3 that said you could re-learn a forgotten spell at the same percentage you had when you forgot it. If you _can_ re-learn a forgotten spell per the rules, then there really is no need for sorcerers to have spellbooks, is there? Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:04:31 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks The original rules do explicitly state that if you pick up a matrix for a spell you have a skill in you can use your current casting chance. Ash - -----Original Message----- From: Tollisen Terje [mailto:terje.Tollisen@posten.no] Sent: 03 March 1999 09:26 To: 'runequest-rules@mpgn.com' Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Rich Allen: >>> "Also, can't a magician choose to forget a spell, wait a while, relearn it >>> and still have the same % in the skill (maybe with a penalty)? > >> For what it's worth, that's what the rules say, before they were Sandied >> into their current form. Sorcerers can also develop a skill with a spell they >> don't know even if they can get hold of a matrix for it. >I'm sorry, where does it say this in the rules? We created out spellbook >rules specifically because we couldn't find anywhere in RQ3 that said you >could re-learn a forgotten spell at the same percentage you had when you >forgot it. If you _can_ re-learn a forgotten spell per the rules, then >there really is no need for sorcerers to have spellbooks, is there? You're right, it doesn't say so in the rules. But as far as I understand things, and play them, a sorcerer can learn a spell, train his skill used to cast it, then forget it and use a matrix with spell but sill use his own skill%. This might not be in the rule either, but it seems to be a common way of doing things. Do you allow this Rich, or must a sorcerer learn the skill for casting a spell from zero it he wants to free up some INT? Anyway, if a spellcaster can forget a spell to use another source for the spell, he should be able to relearn it himself. - -Terje Tollisen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:06:25 +0100 From: Alain.RAMEAU@total.com (Alain RAMEAU) Subject: [RQ-RULES] writing spells What a sorcerer learns, when he reads a spell book, is the theory of casting the spell, which means the first 1D6% in the spell (the same rules as learning a spell through a Magus or a Spell matrix). Thereafter, the sorcerer must practise the spell in order to improve its percentage. Maybe the spellbook could contain some tips and other methods to improve the spell casting, but I don't think this should make a lot of percentage more as it remains theoric too. What the skill represents is the ability to put into practice this theoric knowledge. And this cannot be improved simply by reading a book, even written by a 100% skilled Magus. Alain. www.btinternet.com/~karamo/rqgb.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 07:34:10 -0600 From: Steve Lieb Subject: [RQ-RULES] spells and writing Al Harrison makes some good points: >The TA tries to explain deformation of metals by the dislocation motion >mechanism. He knows the information at about 60% but can speak/write >English at about 30%. My experience with IT TA's, you were apparently pretty lucky. I go over my notes several times; the first time >it's clear to 10%, the second time to 25%, the third time to 30%, and >thereafter it just doesn't get better. >I go to the prof, who knows the stuff to 80% and can write/speak to 90%. >After studying these notes a number of times, I understand the information >to 70% or better. >I would say that magic is the same as any other profession. IMO I basically agree with Al's points, but I think the techniques of magic is far more subjective and experiential than physics. Thus in my opinion the text simply cannot convey the essence of the skill, only give you a base if you aren't re-learning it. >------------------------------ Rich corrects me: >> My problem is simple: Bill knows a spell at 95%. He writes it down and >> shows it to Novice Ned. Now Ned knows it at 95%. They show it to Stupid >> Stan. Stan now knows it at 95%. They show it to Frank the >> Fighter, now HE knows it at 95%. > > No, not at all! [snip] The 95% spell description makes it a little >easier TO LEARN, it does NOT give you the 95% from the start. OK then, I misunderstood. THAT I agree with completely. Also with Rich's comments about most spells being in the 50-75 range. However, if I was playing a sorcerer, I would have every spell I know written down SOMEWHERE at the current skill, and keep it updated. Never know when you're going to have your brain sucked or something. Here's a question: is there a Lingua Magica that would be commonly used? Of course it would be a Western tongue in Glorantha (akin to Latin, I suppose). I mean in the sense of a "common tongue" for sorcerors - I think in this context the odds of a magician being able to read the spells written by another (even from a totally different culture) probably would be pretty high. - -Steve Lieb styopa@iname.com steve@necadon.com http://surf.to/styopa *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:42:48 GMT From: "Nikk Effingham" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets the Ressurecti > > Because there is no rules difference between shamans and sorcerors, > > or at least there is a large amount of comparisons. Now, > > > Because a Priest doesn't devote POW to his holy item. I'm only > > challenging the idea on a purely mechanical level that a player with > > a shaman and a sorceror will find the two run in a very similar > > fashion. > > But a priest DOES devote POW to his god. So priests and shamans sacrifice > POW to something in order to become better at their particular way of > casting magic. Also, a fetch is a conscious entity, a spirit. A vessel is > not conscious in any way, but is more like a super enchantment, combining > Magic Point Matrix Enchantment with some new stuff. It's an external > storage device for pieces of the sorcerer's soul, and can maintain spells > that are cast by the sorcerer, but cannot cast spells or do anything else on > its own. I think they're different enough in the rules to make them > separate mechanics. I'm still not convinced. The shaman dedicates his POW to an ever growing pool of power in the form of his fetch, whilst a rune priest dedicates his POW to purchasing spells for the purposes of casting them. The soreceror deciating POW to his vessel is similar to the shaman in that respect. I don't see it as being a MAJOR flaw in the system, but the fact is I'd prefer something different, if there are other options on offer. > > It is not so much the Vessel that i have a problem with, it is the > > deovting of POW to it rather than some other method. > > How else would you suggest the item be enchanted? Three options srping to mind; every culture has a ritual particular to itself that increases the sorcery pool. For instance, Vivamorti and Vadeli sacrifice people, Rokari have a form of ritual to befit their ecclesiastical position within society, Arkati have varying rituals (from killing chaos to being more and more Illuminated, of course this is a _vast_ simplification - I have no wish to drag a Gloranthan debate onto the rules digest), the Hrestoli I see as having varioous tests with which a Wizard proves their worth, and as each test is completed their pool increases and they can continue onto the next stage with the last test being to become a Lord caste. I see the Brithini increasing their pools by research and study, or adhering to their complicated caste vows. Kralori sorceros probably have to take Vows of varoius forms to abstain from various worldly things. Second option, modifier Sandy's Sorcery rules so Vows increase Vessel pool rather than Presence. I don't like this option as in this case you may as well just be using Sandy's rules. lastly, the pool could increase naturally every year by one point at Sacred Time. All IMO Nikk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:57:09 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets the Ressurecti >Lastly, the pool could increase naturally >every year by one point at Sacred Time. How shockingly Gloranthan of you! You should have said "Christmas, Chinese New Year, Hogmanay, Summer Solstice, Vernal Equinoxm or other appropriate cultural annual special time"... :) Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:57:45 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] recording sorcery > But RQ mechanics miss the situtation that you can get middling-good > very quickly and very fast. For 15 hours study, perhaps you can get > from 0 to 50% in some skills. Then it starts getting much harder. RQ does this very well, it is just harder than you suggest. Anyone can research a skill to 30%+ in just over a week without paying a teacher. If the skill starts at 0%, add another week for the base training. By paying a teacher for another four weeks or so, the 30% skill can be raised to 50%. After that I suggest learning by doing. To better reflect the learning speeds you suggest, you have to implement skill difficulty levels: easy, normal, hard, very hard, with experience rolls based on the difficulty: d6+2, d6, d3, d3-1, for instance. This is what I have done in my game. Easy skills can be mastered in a year or two, normal skills take x2, hard skills can take x2 of normal, and very hard skills are not likely to be mastered, except with great diligence and effort. The amount of effort expended by the player in getting experience checks and training time can change the learning rate from one extreme of the range to the other, but if they succeed at an easy skill even once a season, it will go up noticeably in a year. > How about a mechanism which deals with the fact that, under pressure, > things you don't know very well can work quite badly, but when not > under pressure and you have time to think, even things you don't know > well can be worked through to success. Obviously this doesn't work > for every skill: languages for instance: you may, with time, be able > to get across at 25% when you're currently at 10% through hand signals, > etc. But you're not going to get across at 60%. I have also suggested a series of difficulty modifiers based on the situation. Very easy is x2, Easy is x1.5, Normal is x1, Hard is x.5, with maybe a Very hard at x.25! This allows the referee a quick assessment that lets the player know if he wants to risk the attempt. In general, you should never give an experience check for a very easy or easy attempt, although you might count a series of them as training. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:23:44 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] writing spells > What a sorcerer learns, when he reads a spell book, is the theory of > casting the spell, which means the first 1D6% in the spell (the same > rules as learning a spell through a Magus or a Spell matrix). > > Thereafter, the sorcerer must practise the spell in order to improve > its percentage. Maybe the spellbook could contain some tips and other > methods to improve the spell casting, but I don't think this should > make a lot of percentage more as it remains theoric too. What the > skill represents is the ability to put into practice this theoric > knowledge. And this cannot be improved simply by reading a book, even > written by a 100% skilled Magus. > Alain. I agree. A written spell is like a recipe in a cookbook: no matter how well you write it, it will not give you much more than a basic knowledge. a very good version may give a small bonus. Practice is the significant requirement. On spell skills... the Magic book makes no distinction between the skill for a spell known vs. a spell matrix. You don't have to know a spell (in mind) to use it, just have a source for the spell (matrix, familiar or spirit), and every time you use it, you have a chance for experience to improve your skill. Remember that a spell skill can't be researched, sorcery skills can. We have allowed a few sorcery matrices into my Pavis campaign and a couple of characters have developed a modest ability at using them, but they have no knowledge of manipulations, only the apprentice can do that. If they become students, they can learn Intensity, but they would have to become apprentices to learn the other manipulation skills. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:57:07 -0000 From: "Dom Twist" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] writing spells I seem to have lost the Glorantha Discusion group address......anyone got it to hand? - -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stancliff To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Date: 03 March 1999 15:27 Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] writing spells >> What a sorcerer learns, when he reads a spell book, >is the theory of >> casting the spell, which means the first 1D6% in the >spell (the same >> rules as learning a spell through a Magus or a Spell >matrix). >> >> Thereafter, the sorcerer must practise the spell in >order to improve >> its percentage. Maybe the spellbook could contain >some tips and other >> methods to improve the spell casting, but I don't >think this should >> make a lot of percentage more as it remains theoric >too. What the >> skill represents is the ability to put into practice >this theoric >> knowledge. And this cannot be improved simply by >reading a book, even >> written by a 100% skilled Magus. >> Alain. > I agree. A written spell is like a recipe in a cookbook: >no matter how well you write it, it will not give you much >more than a basic knowledge. a very good version may give >a small bonus. Practice is the significant requirement. > > On spell skills... the Magic book makes no distinction >between the skill for a spell known vs. a spell matrix. >You don't have to know a spell (in mind) to use it, just >have a source for the spell (matrix, familiar or spirit), >and every time you use it, you have a chance for experience >to improve your skill. Remember that a spell skill can't >be researched, sorcery skills can. > We have allowed a few sorcery matrices into my Pavis >campaign and a couple of characters have developed a modest >ability at using them, but they have no knowledge of >manipulations, only the apprentice can do that. If they >become students, they can learn Intensity, but they would >have to become apprentices to learn the other manipulation >skills. >Bob Stancliff > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #44 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. 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