From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #45 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, March 4 1999 Volume 02 : Number 045 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] spells and writing [RQ-RULES] RE: spellbooks [RQ-RULES] RE: Paul Reilly's sorcery system [RQ-RULES] DMD - Arvoreen for RQ/Greyhawk RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets the Ressurecti SV: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks [RQ-RULES] Lingua Magica Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Re: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:58:09 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] spells and writing Steve Lieb wrote: > > Here's a question: is there a Lingua Magica that would be commonly used? > Of course it would be a Western tongue in Glorantha (akin to Latin, I > suppose). I mean in the sense of a "common tongue" for sorcerors - I think > in this context the odds of a magician being able to read the spells > written by another (even from a totally different culture) probably would > be pretty high. I've always ruled that a spell can be written in any language the sorcerer knows. Usually this will be his native tongue, but many sorcerers will either study ancient languages or 'invent' new ones so as to better guard the knowledge in their spell books. - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:16 -0500 From: "Loren Miller" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: spellbooks I don't have the roolz with me but it's clear to me at least that knowing a sorcery spell has two parts. (1) the skill in the spell. this can be increased by research or instruction, and does not deteriorate whether or not (2) the spell is in the mind. the sorceror can keep a spell in mind or not, and it takes about a week to study a spell and put it in mind. the first time a sorceror learns a spell enough to put it in mind he also learns a rudimentary amount of skill[1]. - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms." --Henry Miller, _The Colossus of Maroussi_ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:04:16 -0500 From: "Loren Miller" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: Paul Reilly's sorcery system "Nikk Effingham" sez: > I'm still not convinced. The shaman dedicates his POW to an ever > growing pool of power in the form of his fetch, whilst a rune priest > dedicates his POW to purchasing spells for the purposes of casting > them. The soreceror deciating POW to his vessel is similar to the > shaman in that respect. I don't see it as being a MAJOR flaw in the > system, but the fact is I'd prefer something different, if there are > other options on offer. I recall quite clearly the discussion that led the old rq playtest list to agree on this. Here's my understanding of what we came up with. Shadow, Other, and Reflection. These are the three kinds of otherworldly body manifested by the practitioners of different branches of magic. The shaman dedicates his POW to the otherworld, where it takes the form of a fetch, which is his spiritual shadow. It is the spiritual body of the shaman himself. It can capture spirits by engulfing them. It looks like an animal, the shaman's totem animal. The priest dedicates his POW to the otherworld, where it takes the form of the divine powers of his deity, and in fact the divine powers form when aggregated together a kind of divine other of the priest in the form of his deity. It's as if one spell formed the arm of the priest's divine other, another was the leg, another was the head, another the eyes, another the armor, and so on. And when the priest has enough spells, his divine other looks a LOT like the deity he venerates looks on the divine plane. The sorceror's vessel is a magical reflection of the sorceror. It exists on the magical, or astral, plane. It probably looks exactly like the sorceror, except it is horizontally reversed just like a mirror's reflection. The sorceror forms it by dedicating POW through Vows, and can then use it to hold and support magical spells. Much as in _A Portrait of Dorian Gray_, the moral choices made by a sorceror, including the spells he learns, masters, and uses, rub off on his otherworld reflection. If a sorceror is a righteous wizard then his reflection will glow with white light and be healthy and beautiful. If a sorceror uses Tap and other evil spells then his reflection will become dark, plague-ridden, and monstrous. - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller "If men cease to believe that they will one day become gods then they will surely become worms." --Henry Miller, _The Colossus of Maroussi_ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:17:52 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] DMD - Arvoreen for RQ/Greyhawk Gods of the Hobniz ARVOREEN Runes: Harmony, Fire, Stasis, Death Known variously as the Defender, the Vigilant, and the Wary. Cult in the World Among the generally placid and peaceloving hobniz, Arvoreen is the god of defense and watchfulness, and what, among other races, would be warfare. Often thought to be the mate of Yondalla, and the father of the other hobniz deities, Arvoreen is also the fire-bringer, the one responsible for teaching the hobniz race the uses (and the comforts) of fire. Arvoreen's followers hold the 11th of Readying (known as the Day of Remembrance) sacred, in addition to regular services each Godsday and special holidays commemorating hobniz victories over aggression in the past. Temples to Arvoreen are typically fortified stone redoubts, placed in strategic locations near to hobniz settlements. Priests of Arvoreen generally wear silvered chainmail and a deep blue tabard emblazoned with a crossed pair of silver shortswords. Lay Membership Requirements: Known as Shieldbearers, any and all hobniz who have ever had to defend his home is automatically a follower of Arvoreen, as are most active career warriors. Skills taught by the cult include Climb, Dodge, Maneuver, Throw, Tumble, Orate, Speak Languages, Craft (various weapon & armor manufacturing skills), First Aid, various Lores (mostly enemy races, e.g. goblinkind), Conceal, Devise, Listen, Scan, Track, Hide, Sneak, Ceremony, Shortsword attack, and the Arvoreen's Defense weapon style. Initiate Membership Requirements: Standard. Known as Guardians, initiates of Arvoreen are responsible to their communities as exactly that, serving under their commanding Marshalls. Spirit Magic: Befuddle, Bladesharp, Bladeweave, Demoralize, Ignite, Repair, Shimmer, and Strength. Acolyte Membership Requirements: Standard. Known as Protectors, acolytes of this faith, in addition to serving their communities, are often called upon to scout out locations for new settlements as well as carry messages between existing temples to their god. Rune Lord Membership Requirements: Standard. Known as TrueSwords, rune lords of this cult seek to spread the tenets of their faith by example, and actively patrol hobniz lands with an ever-watchful eye for lurking danger. Priesthood Requirements: Standard. Arvoreen's Marshals serve as leaders in times of war, and coordinate the training and actions of their followers in times of peace. They also aid craftsmen in the design of defensive tunnels and burrows, as well as the manufacture of weapons and armor. Virtues for Arvoreen include Altruistic, Energetic, Loyal, and Pragmatic. Common Divine Magic: all. Special Divine Magic: Attract Attention, Chameleon, Courage, Morale, Shield, Sun Sword, Vigilance. Associated Gods Urogalan: provides Turn Undead Yondalla: provides Community. - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:40:07 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Philip Hibbs > Where does it say that the skill is treated unlike other skills? Surely it > should just follow the standard skill deterioration rules for not having > been used for a while. We based our understanding on the line that reads "A sorcerer may never learn more spells than he has INT." and the line that reads "Sorcerers may forget spells (at one spell per hour) to gain more free INT." To us, that meant that the sorcerer, through some arcane ritual, ERASES all knowledge of that spell in his head to make more room for more spells or greater manipulation. It specifically says "forget" which is very much different than "doesn't use." This meant, to us, that the sorcerer would have to start over at 1d6% if he wanted to once again learn that spell, just like someone who has had brain damage may have to re-learn how to walk or even speak. That's what prompted our rules for spellbooks. It makes things MUCH easier if we go with the assumption that the word "forget" was used in error, no arguments there, but that makes spellbooks much less common. Also not a bad thing, in my opinion. We treated the section on Spell Matrix Enchantments to mean that the skill gained was somehow different than actually learning the spell the hard way. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:56:12 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets the Ressurecti > I'm still not convinced. The shaman dedicates his POW to an ever > growing pool of power in the form of his fetch, whilst a rune priest > dedicates his POW to purchasing spells for the purposes of casting > them. The soreceror deciating POW to his vessel is similar to the > shaman in that respect. I don't see it as being a MAJOR flaw in the > system, but the fact is I'd prefer something different, if there are > other options on offer. Well, can you imagine a vessel as an extension of a Magic Point Matrix? You and some others seem to object to the ability of a vessel to regenerate MPs on it's own, and I'm certainly not married to the idea. Can we make the vessel an item that can store MPs, and can also maintain spells somehow? The advantage of transferring a sorcerer's POW into a vessel is that he would still have access to that POW, and also has the oppurtunity to raise his personal POW further. Sorcerers sacrifice POW to create enchanted items, and I assume you don't have a problem with that. How about this: A vessel is created in the same manner as a MPME (but with less MP storage per POW than the errata version, due to the ability to maintain spells). MP's stored in the vessel can be used by the sorcerer to cast spells, or to maintain spells cast through the vessel. A vessel capable of storing 10 MPs, but which only has 5 MP's stored, can only maintain a 5 point spell, or less. A fully charged vessel that can store 10 MPs and has a 5 point spell maintained through it will have 5 MP's available for use by the sorcerer for spell casting. This still requires the sorcerer to sacrifice a number of POW during the creation of the vessel, but brings it more in line with the other sorcerous enchantment abilities. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:52:20 +0100 From: Tollisen Terje Subject: SV: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Rich Allen: > It makes things MUCH easier if we go with the assumption that the word >"forget" was used in error, no arguments there, but that makes spellbooks >much less common. I still think there would be very smart for a sorcerer to have a spellbook. At least if you follow the RQ3 rules. To learn a spell you must spend 200 (or 250?) hours with a teacher, or 500 hours of research. Creating rules for relearning a spell that you have written down yourself, in a shorter period of time, might be good. - -Terje Tollisen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:39:27 GMT From: simonh@msi-uk.com (Simon Hibbs) Subject: [RQ-RULES] Lingua Magica Steve Lieb : >Here's a question: is there a Lingua Magica that would be commonly used? >Of course it would be a Western tongue in Glorantha (akin to Latin, I >suppose). I mean in the sense of a "common tongue" for sorcerors - I think >in this context the odds of a magician being able to read the spells >written by another (even from a totally different culture) probably would >be pretty high. Old Seshnellan is your best bet. It was the language used by the Jrusteli. They codified and disseminated the standard texts of Malkionism in the second age, durign their return to Rightness period. (Before the God Learner Heresy took root.) Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:56:22 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks > We based our understanding on the line that reads "A sorcerer may never > learn more spells than he has INT." and the line that reads "Sorcerers may > forget spells (at one spell per hour) to gain more free INT." > To us, that meant that the sorcerer, through some arcane ritual, ERASES all > knowledge of that spell in his head to make more room for more spells or > Rich Allen This is clearly a mistake in understanding the difference between sorcery spell and sorcery skill. Sorcery spells are very similar to spirit spells: they take one free INT to have in mind, take one magic point per intensity (or manipulation), can be voluntarily forgotten. The big difference is that they give knowledge of the magic, but do not include the skill to cast them. The sorcery skill is needed to cast a sorcery spell. It is independent of the spell and is just like any other skill, except that it cannot be researched. The time given to learning a spell and putting it in mind teach a small initial sorcery skill% to cast it. This skill gets better by successfully casting the spell. A sorcerer who has mastered the Damage Boost skill could teach the spell to his familiar and then forget the spell. He now has no knowledge of the spell magic in his mind, but he can use the spell knowledge of his familiar to cast the spell using his own spell skill. The familiar will have it's own spell skill at casting the spell that is different from the sorcerer's. One day the familiar gets kill and even though the sorcerer has a mastery at casting the spell, he cannot do so until he regains the spell knowledge. He may do this by relearning the spell and putting it into his mind, or he may go to a friend and buy a spell matrix for the spell so that he can use the spell knowledge stored in the matrix. Now he can cast the spell at his normal skill. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:31:43 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets > Well, can you imagine a vessel as an extension of a Magic Point Matrix? > You and some others seem to object to the ability of a vessel to regenerate > MPs on it's own, and I'm certainly not married to the idea. Can we make the > vessel an item that can store MPs, and can also maintain spells somehow? > The advantage of transferring a sorcerer's POW into a vessel is that he > would still have access to that POW, and also has the oppurtunity to raise > his personal POW further. Sorcerers sacrifice POW to create enchanted > items, and I assume you don't have a problem with that. > Rich Allen What most of us have disliked is that the vessel was described as adding to the spell defense and spirit combat (defense?) just like a fetch. This is too much like a shaman. I am also bothered by the boosting of manipulation, since this makes 20 to 30 points of manipulation possible in just a couple of game years after making the vessel. Leaving manipulation tied to free Int had it's problems, but tying it to the spell skill and manipulation skills of the caster works very well. After many years of training, a wizard might be able to manipulate 20 to 25 points this way, but the practical limit is around 20, which is important for game balance. I have no problem with using it for MP storage and recovery that can also maintain spells, although I choose not to use Sandy's rules myself... I like the Duration skill. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:03:39 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks > This is clearly a mistake in understanding the difference > between sorcery spell and sorcery skill. I grant you that we may interpreting the rules wrong, but where in the rules does it distinguish between a spell and the skill in that spell? > Sorcery spells are very similar to spirit spells: they > take one free INT to have in mind, take one magic point per > intensity (or manipulation), can be voluntarily forgotten. > The big difference is that they give knowledge of the > magic, but do not include the skill to cast them. > The sorcery skill is needed to cast a sorcery spell. It > is independent of the spell and is just like any other > skill, except that it cannot be researched. I can't find any mention of this in the rules. In fact, the sorcery section of the Magic Book constantly uses "sorcery spell" and "spell skill" interchangeably. I'm not saying your interpretation of the rules is wrong, I just want to find out if it is the right way to interpret what's in the rule book. > The time given to learning a spell and putting it in mind > teach a small initial sorcery skill% to cast it. This > skill gets better by successfully casting the spell. Does this mean that if a sorcerer forgets a spell he has 90% chance of casting, and then at a later time decides to re-learn it, it would take just as long to study as if he was encountering the spell for the first time? How does that make sense? Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #45 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.