From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #89 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, May 25 1999 Volume 02 : Number 089 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:40:22 -0400 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points > -- Tim > How about saying that a shrine is as good as a temple for 'regaining' Rune > Points through 'x days of prayer, etc.', but to gain the ability to cast a > given Rune spell in the first place, you have to go to the correct center of > worship? > An example I have in mind is the Trickster cult. Bunches of tiny shrines > each of which teaches one specific and obscure spell. A trickster who wants > to have a range of Rune Magic has to visit each of them and go though the > specific learning ritual/quest. This is a good start. I would elaborate by saying that knowledge of how to cast a certain spell has to be taught at the right size temple (minor hero quest?), but then you never forget it and it needs no Free INT, you just keep a list of studied spells. The casting of the spell requires previously sacrificed POW stored as Rune Points, which are used up by initiates and rune lords, but recoverable for priests at their personal shrine (if they lose their icon, they have to consecrate a new one). 1 POW may be sacrificed for 1 Rune Point at any temple or shrine during each Worship spell. If you want to sacrifice more POW than once per seasonal Holy Day, you will need to pay for Worship spells on weekly holy days or attend multiple Worships on the Holy Day. This allows for story problems such as "Orlanth's Worship is only cast at Dawn or Dusk of Windsday, usually in Movement week of each season". It would definitely be a sign of devotion if someone sacrificed POW at every holy day for several seasons straight. > I think the same thing should apply to Orlanth, Urox, etc, too. Someone had > mentioned an Orlanthi being able to get access to more of Uroxi rune magic > as an associated cult. I agree, as long as the Orlanthi has to go to the > Uroxi holy place and enact the quest needed to understand how to cast the > spell. I don't like allowing free access to all of the associated cult magic like this. Limit it to the Associated Cult spell only, but allow it to be learned at any temple of the associated cult. > Now pilgrimages start to make some sense. (So *that's* why you'd go to each > Cathedral and walk the labyrinth, there...) > I like the 'cool' factor of sending the characters to remote holy places to > learn specific spells. What if they need a certain obscure spell to > complete a hero quest, and chaos has taken over the only site it can be > learned? Maybe, I don't want to take a strong position here. If you are introducing special / new spells into the game, this would be a good way. This would work well for the special powers of a hero sub-cult. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:48:36 -0700 From: "Timothy Byrd" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Julian Lord replying to me: >> I guess I tend to believe that while all the initiates know the myths, only >> the Rune levels get the Gnostic knowledge to cast rune magic based on them. >> And that's on a myth by myth basis. > >I don't completely agree with this last bit. Initiates can cast Rune >Magic, after all, and *every* homespun version of RP I've seen so far >has provisions for initiates to regain their RP >(usually 1/HHD or 1/Seasonal HD). Mine will, too. You're right about initiates, of course. How if I amend my statement? Casting a given Rune magic requires a secret (gnostic) knowledge of the associated myth. This knowledge is given out on the basis of merit (to Rune levels & initiates). This might imply that shrines are really bound to specific myths, not to spells. An associate shrine might be to a myth where the two deities cooperated. Two shrines could conceivably teach different variations of the same spell because the god used the power differently in the myths the shrines are dedicated to. (If you make the difficult pilgramage to a certain temple, you can learn a better Bless Crops (or whatever) spell - either more effective, or simply higher status. Think of the possibilities for political infighting between factions with different forms of Worship...) Does a shrine then become a major temple by "collecting" more myths? I would like to create the feeling that someone who has done a major pilgrimage/quest is then looked at differently by those back home. I like your recovery ideas. Are initiates/acolytes really qualitatively different than Rune levels, though? Perhaps the ceremony of being recognized a Rune Level just gives you a certain bonus to the recovery rate. (Similar to the bonus for being an officiating priest.) Maybe we could make a general rule with bonuses/penalties for closeness of ties, devotion, quests etc. - -- Tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:19:54 -0700 From: "Timothy Byrd" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points > This is a good start. I would elaborate by saying that >knowledge of how to cast a certain spell has to be taught >at the right size temple (minor hero quest?), but then you >never forget it and it needs no Free INT, you just keep a >list of studied spells. As a minor tweak, instead of saying a temple of a given size, how about a temple that encompasses the the myth associated with the spell. Naturally, bigger temples will have more myths "available", and thus a large set of spell knowledge. But then it's also possible that two smallish temples could teach completely different sets of spells. > The casting of the spell requires previously sacrificed >POW stored as Rune Points, which are used up by initiates >and rune lords, but recoverable for priests at their >personal shrine (if they lose their icon, they have to >consecrate a new one). 1 POW may be sacrificed for 1 Rune >Point at any temple or shrine during each Worship spell. > If you want to sacrifice more POW than once per seasonal >Holy Day, you will need to pay for Worship spells on weekly >holy days or attend multiple Worships on the Holy Day. >This allows for story problems such as "Orlanth's Worship >is only cast at Dawn or Dusk of Windsday, usually in >Movement week of each season". It would definitely be a >sign of devotion if someone sacrificed POW at every holy >day for several seasons straight. I guess that Heros become their own shrines, then. > I don't like allowing free access to all of the associated >cult magic like this. Limit it to the Associated Cult >spell only, but allow it to be learned at any temple of the >associated cult. I agree that free access would be undesirable. Assosciate or not, you still have to convince the other priest that you deserve to learn more of his cults secrets. (Then comes the quest/ritual/whatever.) The idea of trading only a single spell seems a bit stiff to me. An aspiring hero should be able to go beyond that - but only with heroic effort. > Maybe, I don't want to take a strong position here. If >you are introducing special / new spells into the game, >this would be a good way. This would work well for the >special powers of a hero sub-cult. Well, I'm considering running a variant game where pretty much *all* Rune magic is obscure. (The problem is - if I'm allowing the PCs to learn it, then why hasn't some NPC been there ahead of them?) So my ideas may not be optimal as general rules. - -- Tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:54:26 -0400 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points > As a minor tweak, instead of saying a temple of a given size, how about a > temple that encompasses the the myth associated with the spell. Naturally, > bigger temples will have more myths "available", and thus a large set of > spell knowledge. But then it's also possible that two smallish temples > could teach completely different sets of spells. A priest can only teach a spell if he knows it personally. A few spells are available anywhere, and the larger the temple the more complete the selection. Your example can be pushed too far... I have no problem tying special subcults to specific places, but you don't want to spread the spells of a major religion out across the entire country (except a minor cult like Eurmal). > I guess that Heros become their own shrines, then. Any self respecting hero becomes an acolyte and carries his own shrine. After he also becomes a rune lord he is probably given some autonomy to control his own quests and missions, with the support of a home temple and it's high priest. > I agree that free access would be undesirable. Associate or not, you still > have to convince the other priest that you deserve to learn more of his > cults secrets. (Then comes the quest/ritual/whatever.) The idea of trading > only a single spell seems a bit stiff to me. An aspiring hero should be > able to go beyond that - but only with heroic effort. You can always join a second cult and have initiate access to their spells, or be a rune lord in Orlanth and an acolyte in an associated cult (per the rules). It is better for the rest to rely on Issaries' Spell Trade spell or divine matrices. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:48:03 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Timothy Byrd: > Casting a given Rune magic requires a secret (gnostic) knowledge of the > associated myth. This knowledge is given out on the basis of merit (to Rune > levels & initiates). That's right !! It's a rule !! Although a god sometimes reveals such mythic knowledge via sendings, dreams, visions, etc. to those who are worthy of it. I prefer "secret knowledge" ; "gnostic knowledge" is a pleonasm. > This might imply that shrines are really bound to specific myths, not to > spells. An associate shrine might be to a myth where the two deities > cooperated. Two shrines could conceivably teach different variations of the > same spell because the god used the power differently in the myths the > shrines are dedicated to. (If you make the difficult pilgramage to a > certain temple, you can learn a better Bless Crops (or whatever) spell - > either more effective, or simply higher status. Think of the possibilities > for political infighting between factions with different forms of > Worship...) I think that this is mostly correct, although most shrines are small and obscure because few people are interested in worshipping the local cult. Bless Crops is actually an excellent example to choose! There are in fact many, many, many shrines for Bless Crops in the land, each local spell being highly specialised (from one POV) magic for the surrounding field(s), although each spell could also be used more or less effectively on other farmland, its effectiveness depending on how resemblant this other land is to the land of the shrine, and to the local version of the Earth cult. Each of these shrines would, indeed, have a specific local myth attached to it that the magician would need to learn before casting the spell (or while casting it if he's heroquesting to use the magic) . Some shrines are places where gods met, and are mythic nexus points, as you suggest, and sacred to two or more cults. In game terms, everything depends on how detailed your campaign is. I'd *love* to get involved in all this nitty gritty stuff, but I prefer epic scope, and so I have to whitewash most of this in my own campaign, most of the time ... *sigh* ... > Does a shrine then become a major temple by "collecting" more myths? Sort of. A shrine becomes a temple when more and more people worship there, importing their own mythic knowledge and rituals, which they repeat continuously, so that the shrine then becomes a holy place for all the common myths of the cult. But Umberto Eco, if he were a RuneQuest fan, would say that the myths of the temple are implicit in the myths of the shrine. In HW terms, the Orlanth keyword contains _in posse_ everything that can possibly be said about Orlanth. If the shrine is linked to a Rune cult, then all the myths of that cult are potentially available there. If the shrine is just a spirit place, or embodies a myth unknown to the cult, then more serious heroquesting is needed, or the shrine won't be promotable to temple status. Most shrines of a god merely embody local variations of spells which have no effect in RulesQuest terms, but any effect you like in RoleQuest ones. Exceptions to all of these statements, natch. > I would like to create the feeling that someone who has done a major > pilgrimage/quest is then looked at differently by those back home. Well, I've done a major pilgrimage (Paris to Santiago de Compostela on foot), but my family didn't look at me that differently. Going to University changed their view somewhat, though. Whooopps, off topic :-) > I like your recovery ideas. Thanks. > Are initiates/acolytes really qualitatively > different than Rune levels, though? I think that the essential difference is in the cult skill levels, and the differing ability to successfully complete the local HQs, and differing benefits gained therefrom because of this. Most acolytes would be officiating at local shrines, or shrines in temples of associate cults on Holy Days, IMO. > Perhaps the ceremony of being > recognized a Rune Level just gives you a certain bonus to the recovery rate. > (Similar to the bonus for being an officiating priest.) Maybe we could make > a general rule with bonuses/penalties for closeness of ties, devotion, > quests etc. That's what I'm looking for. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 03:11:55 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Tim : > > This is a good start. I would elaborate by saying that > >knowledge of how to cast a certain spell has to be taught > >at the right size temple (minor hero quest?), but then you > >never forget it and it needs no Free INT, you just keep a > >list of studied spells. > > As a minor tweak, instead of saying a temple of a given size, how about a > temple that encompasses the the myth associated with the spell. Naturally, > bigger temples will have more myths "available", and thus a large set of > spell knowledge. I think that's mainly right. That's why I proposed a list of common spells for each cult, meaning a list of common mythology, although it's absolutely true that there's much local variation. Probably just one or two different, extra, or missing spells though, IMO. > But then it's also possible that two smallish temples > could teach completely different sets of spells. I don't agree with this though, except for a few marginal cults like Trickster. > I guess that Heros become their own shrines, then. WB&RM and RQ2 Superheroes do. The current definitions for Hero and Superhero are still in a state of flux, but until some stage in the development of Greg's Gloranthan RQ3, a Superhero was a Hero who received direct worship, or, a living god. Hence, he was his own shrine. Don't really know about Heroes, though. > > I don't like allowing free access to all of the associated > >cult magic like this. Limit it to the Associated Cult > >spell only, but allow it to be learned at any temple of the > >associated cult. > > I agree that free access would be undesirable. Me too ! Ain't what I meant. But I *don't* like the RQ3 rules for associate cults. > Assosciate or not, you still > have to convince the other priest that you deserve to learn more of his > cults secrets. And it's more difficult if you're "not one of us" ! > (Then comes the quest/ritual/whatever.) And this is much harder for non-initiates of the cult, who don't have all the secret knowledge ! I don't think you can just waltz in, sacrifice your POW, and walk home with your off-the-shelf blister-packed Rune spell ... > The idea of trading > only a single spell seems a bit stiff to me. Yeah ! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 03:26:55 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Rune points Bob Stancliff : > A priest can only teach a spell if he knows it personally. A priest can still teach *himself* a spell he doesn't know. And he can always help you heroquest for it, if needed, even if he doesn't know it himself. Also, IMO the mythic / magic knowledge is more diffuse in Gloranthan (but not necessarily in other worlds') societies than you imply. Also, if a group of atheists discovered, and began worshipping a god, in the course of time the people would know all his myths; and later, one of them would become a priest, with the power to cast that god's magics, even though he, and all the people who support him, and believe in him, used to be atheists.. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #89 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.