From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #175 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, December 22 1999 Volume 02 : Number 175 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] only one way RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Oliver will get a new trial [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:48:27 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ >>After all that's why they obsessively burned witches - they were scared witless of their magic. Well, it's more likely because the Law of Moses ordered "Do not allow a witch to live". Through a combination of illiteracy, Catholic Church imposed ignorance of the biblical text, and individual misunderstandings, many people since the death of Christ have assumed that this law still applied to them. Superstitious fear has been the trigger to prompt extreme reactions to claims of witchcraft based on this simple passage. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:56:27 -0500 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] only one way > More than that, there's only one way to have faith in that God: the Christian way. Other beliefs are not acceptable. Some Christian thinkers believe that for an infidel to show respect to the god he sincerely believes in can have merit and can even bring him to salvation. In Dante's Inferno, pre-christian pagans are placed in Hell if they sinned by their -own- standards, virtuous pagans are in Limbo and a few exceptional ones are in Heaven. In CS Lewis' The Last Battle, a pagan who has paid honorable worship to an evil god is saved. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:00:33 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ >>> 12/22 2:54 AM >>> The idea that for god to exist he has to be just this bloke who happens to be super powerfull is against the main stream of theology for the last few thousand years. It's only recently with the predominance of relatively new and unsophisticated christian sects that simplistic ideas like this have gained intelectual currency. >If God is there is he the God of the Jews(Qaballa?), the Christians >(Catholics? Prostestants? Anabaptists? Quakers? Gnostics? Druse? etc. >) is he the God of Islam (Sunni? Sufi? other?). >I honestly don't see why he can't be all of them. I totally agree - the point I was trying to raise (though it seems that I failed somewhat) is that by determining where God puts his moral foot down - if indeed he does - would be a good guide as to how to construct divine magic within the campaign (as well as figuring out who would be the "good guys" and the "bad guys"). In Glorantha this has always been pretty easy because of the presence of chaos - there's the gods, chaos and those who straddle the line (or just ignore it). I was suggesting that once you established the personality parameters of God you could see where "the line" was. >Hstoricaly the god of islam is very definitely the same god as that of the jews and christians, it's just that each of these groups ascribe different attributes and prefferences to that god.< But _historically_ there's no divine magic. The issue I was speaking to was determining what kind of divine magic would be available based on what sort of nature God has in the campaign. After all that's how you figure out Orlanthi/Humakti/any other Gloranthan cult. >None of the religions you describe substantialy disagree about any of these attributes of god, except in some details that are realy down to linguistic variations in their sacred texts, rather than real substantial differences. < That's a broad generalisation that doesn't hold up well in the light of history - Gnostics, Catholics, Moslems and Jews all believe in the single creator God but their notions of what he is like are so radically opposed as to be almost irreconcilable. To suggest that the differences between these religions' view of God is just textual analysis is both reductionist and dismissive. >a good moslem and a good christian are therefore actualy more pious than a bad jew in the vast majority of cases (I imagine many members of these religions would agree that this is broadly true?), what difference does deciding this in advance actualy make?< Does any GM allow a player to sacrifice for Orlanthi rune magic if he's not an Orlanthi(or associated at least)? Behaviour is not the only determiner of relationship to God(s). Also, ask a Lubavitcher whether a good christian or moslem is better than a bad Jew? See what they say. Also this kind of moral relativism is suffers from ta very distinctively twentieth century form of thinking - post modernism. Medieval cultures weren't culturally or morally relativist. They were bigotted, racist and violent (for the most part). They were cultures that might happily allow insiders to sin but outsiders were put to death for infractions real or imagined. The major point I was trying to suggest is to determine what God thinks about what characters do so that you can determine how divine rewards/penalties are doled out. After all this is how Glorantha works and I just thought that any discussion of how the magic system in a different campaign would work would benefit from this sort of background development. By all means make your God a distant abstract power with no recognisable personality. Certainly that's how the Creator appears to the characters in my non Earth monotheistic campaign. Anyway, the upshot was to give some questions that might help as guides in campaign development - they're questions which most GM's probably never thought to ask because in Glorantha they're already all laid out for you. One additional note I really liked Steve Perrin's idea of facing the monotheists off against the Cthuloids. Very cool, I thought. Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:33:24 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Personally, I think the main issue is whether you're modelling your monotheists on the RW, or what you want to work for you game world. In the real world, the issue of whether or not god, God, or gods exist is pretty much up to the individual. Magic gained from your worship of that god is pretty problematical, too. Now in a game world, it's a whole different issue. All you, as GM/God has to say is that YHVH/Jehovah/Allah grants his followers the following spells: "..." and it is so. Let those be the divine spells, limit the pagains to spirit spells only, and let the sorcerers have their due, if you so desire. I've been tempted on and off to tear out one of the maps from the Deryni (K. Kurtz) novels and do a copy of the known lands from there in CC2, and then attempt to work out the breed of Catholicism they follow there, blended with the psi/magic the Deryni wield as well. The debate over which name of god is fun and all, but who wants to play in the real world, anyway? :) - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:13:18 +0000 From: Michael Cule Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ In message <199912211948.OAA89550@ufl.edu>, Bob Stancliff writes >Well, it's more likely because the Law of Moses ordered "Do not allow a >witch to live". I have read, dunno how true it is, that the actual meaning of that section is 'Do not allow a poisoner to live'. > - -- Michael Cule *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:16:58 PST From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Oliver will get a new trial It looks like Oliver will get a new trial. I always felt that he got a bum rap. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/conviction991222.html Leon Kirshtein www.geocities.com/leonbk/ "No good deed shall go unpunished." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:39:27 -0500 (EST) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Sergio : >I have nothing against this. I only think that there's a misunderstanding >here. Let me try to explain better what I mean: I'm sure there is, we probably just don't fully understand each other's possition yet. >Now, monotheistic religions are based on the belief that there's only one >God. There's only one center of "divine activity", and everything else >relating to religion comes (directely or not) from that center. This means >that this in-game discourse is closed. Yet one of the most widely favoured christian metaphysical models for the relationship between god, angelic beings and mundane creation was the the process of 'emmanation'. This sounds like exactly what you're describing here and it's still accepted by many christian theologians. Yet the theory of emmanation orriginated in greek philosophy hundreds of years before christ, although they believed that the greek gods, rather than angelic beings, emmanated from a single divine source. This theory was adapted by early christian philosophers, many of whom also happened to be greek. Polytheistic greek philosophy also had a strong influence on some strands of Jewish religious philosophy and even Islam. >Now, if the game world designer >thinks that in his game world there should be multiple sources of divinity, >and that there's no A religion, the discourses don't match. The conclusion >is that the in-game discourse of that religion is wrong. Even in Hunduism, Hindus believe that the individual gods are simply masks which express facets of a greater divine essence or continuum. In fact I'm not aware of any major religion that believes in multiple divine sources. Why base the religious philosophy for a historical game on religious beliefs that, historicaly, nobody has ever held? >What I ask is: what's the point in designing a game based on Christianism, >if an essencial aspect of that game is that this religion is utterly wrong? >(Remember that Michael didn't say that he wanted a game about RW faiths. He >didn't say that his game was about Christianism, Islamism, Budism, Judaism, >etc.) I accept that, but it depends what the campaign is about. If the game is about the struggle between rival factions of christians, then it obviosuly isn't about whether 'the' christsian god is the true god, but which version of christianity will come out on top. The game doesn't even have to resolve this absolutely in order for the game to succeed. It may never be determined who is realy right or wrong. In the real world, no compelling, repeatable objective proof of any one religion has been found. I fail to see why we need to do so in gaming. It's simplistic and arbitrary judgements along these lines, such as Good vs Evil, that put me off AD&D. > .....Once more, we have >two different in-game discourses. The game designer must chose which is >true. Why? >The (true) faithful: those that believe in (the Christian) God, and act >according to his percepts; >..... >These are qualitative distinctions, not matters of degree. So you are saying that all (true) faithfull are by definition equaly faithfull? I'm sure I've heard monks and clergymen talking often about strengthening their faith, facing challenges to their faith, guarding against weakening of their faith, etc. Perhaps I'm mistaken? It seems to me that when faced with challeges to one's faith, not everyone meets that challenge sucessfuly. Sometimes the faithfull stray from propper behaviour due to temptation or weakness, sometimes they don't. It also seems to mee that it is possible to reduce the chances of being tempted by becoming more devoted and committed to one's faith. In other words, it is possible to reduce the chance of failing a test of one's faith. This could be usefully represented by a percentage chance.... similar to a skill. >I would also use peersonality traits (like in Pendragon). These >play a major part in Christian religious matters. Fair enough, but I'm not assuming that personality traits are going to be used. I'd say it's probably more like a passion, which also uses skill-like game mechanics. In pendragon, D20 is used for all of these, but in an RQ3 based game it's probably easier to use percentages. >On what concerns faith, I would probably drop the notion of doubt >(agnosticism and atheism). Atheism in it's modern sense (not believing in any kind of god) is anachronistic for the period anyway. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:51:19 -0700 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Faith doesn't apply if your god(s) take an active role in your campaign world. It's kinda hard to waiver in your belief of a god if that god has just visited the local country side to perform some godly act in front of thousands of people. In fact, if the gods have been doing personal appearances for hundreds of years, the word "faith" probably has no religious meaning at all. Rich *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:37:12 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ >Yet one of the most widely favoured christian metaphysical models for the relationship between god, angelic beings and mundane creation was the the process of 'emmanation'. This sounds like exactly what you're describing here and it's still accepted by many christian theologians. Yet the theory of emmanation orriginated in greek philosophy hundreds of years before christ, although they believed that the greek gods, rather than angelic beings, emmanated from a single divine source. This theory was adapted by early christian philosophers, many of whom also happened to be greek. Polytheistic greek philosophy also had a strong influence on some strands of Jewish religious philosophy and even Islam.< I realise that this is a small personal bugbear (but hey, I'm a historian, it's what I do) but I really think that your claim that emanation is, or was, "one of the most widely favoured christian metaphysical models" is grossly inaccurate. Also, on a campaign design note, I don't see why you're so fixed on maintaining cultural/moral/metaphysical relativity. Where does divine magic come from? This is the fundamental question that backs any encounter with a divine mage/priest/saint/prophet etc. After all, who are you going to believe? The guy who stands up and debates the theology of his point in a long winded philosophical discourse or the guy who heals your sick mother and fries your enemies with lightning bolts from heaven? In polytheistic RQ (like Glorantha) everyone who follows any god can do some variation of this so the question never arises. But in a monotheistic universe only those who possess some measure of divine approval will receive this benefit. OK, you can argue that God is really a divine mathematical function - put x worship in here and receive y magic effect there - and that any ideas about what s/he/it likes or dislikes are just cultural projections, but in that case why run a Christian Europe campaign? Moral relativism is really hard to maintain in a religious system where there's only one deity who does interact with human beings. I mean any deity with the power to answer prayers and grant divine intervention is probably going to want things their way, no negotiation, no plea bargain. Remember there's no "Great Compromise" in Christian Europe. Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:41:16 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ This is my last mail on this subject because while we're sliding off into one of my hobby areas - religious/cultural theory - I think I'm dragging away from RQ relevant talk. So, what I still can't get past is my feeling that the GM in a monotheistic campaign needs some kind of answer to two questions - 1. Who's dishing out the divine magic? 2. What's their agenda? Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #175 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.