From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #176 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, December 28 1999 Volume 02 : Number 176 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Xianism in RQ [RQ-RULES] Off-topic [RQ-RULES] Sandy's address [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] The Cult of Tien [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:39:45 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ >>> "Rich Allen" 12/23 9:51 AM >>> Faith doesn't apply if your god(s) take an active role in your campaign world. It's kinda hard to waiver in your belief of a god if that god has just visited the local country side to perform some godly act in front of thousands of people. In fact, if the gods have been doing personal appearances for hundreds of years, the word "faith" probably has no religious meaning at all.<<< Depends what you have faith in - in the God's existence or in their nature. Faith in the existence of God has only been much a religious issue since the advent of humanism and the rise of agnosticism/atheism in thought in the last two centuries. Prior to that faith represented not the belief that God existed - that was taken as a given - but faith that God cared, would fulfil his promises. Basically faith is trust - trusting God that he is the way he says he is - or his prophet says he is or whatever. Also, Christianity has at its basis the notion that basic human living is inimical to Christian faith - Jesus said "The world will hate you because it hated me first". According to Christian mythos Peter is supposed to have been intimately involved with Jesus' miracles before the crucifiction as well as performing miracles on his own after the resurrection. But the story goes that he blew it badly in the courtyard of the high priests house(you know, cock crows, deny me three times etc.) Miracles help but I don't think we can say that they render the whole issue of faith null and void. Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:02:47 -0700 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ > Depends what you have faith in - in the God's existence or in > their nature. Faith in the existence of God has only been much a > religious issue since the advent of humanism and the rise of > agnosticism/atheism in thought in the last two centuries. Prior > to that faith represented not the belief that God existed - that > was taken as a given - but faith that God cared, would fulfil his > promises. Basically faith is trust - trusting God that he is the > way he says he is - or his prophet says he is or whatever. So you're saying that before the 1700's everyone in the world thought that some form of diety exited? I don't buy it, but it doesn't really matter. I think that in ancient times, the village shaman/priest/hedge wizard or whatever was the villager's only contact with whatever religion exited in that village. Day to day life for the majority probably had nothing to do with being pious, faithful, etc. This applied well into the Greek and Roman empires, I believe. How does faith as stated by Simon apply to these cultures? I don't think the majority of the population really gave a rat's butt. If they needed a good crop, or a good sea voyage, or a baby boy, or whatever, they made whatever donation was necessary at the appropriate temple and then probably thought nothing more about it. Of course, this is all conjecture; I didn't live in ancient Greece, or a village thousands of years before cities were invented. My total religious experience has been with the local organized cults in several states (Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, etc.) which is why I'm an existentialist. Either way though, modern faith doesn't apply, and so may not be a good model for a game system meant to represent ancient cultures. In RPGs dieties are usually represented as actual beings, not philisophical conjecture. Why muddy the issue, even in a monotheistic setting, when you don't have to? Just say Josh is the one and only god, he likes to visit orphanages on weekends, he is omnipotent, and knows when you've been naughty or nice. If you behave the way he's told you to, he will grant you these nifty powers. Nuff said. Rich *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:41:27 -0800 From: "DCFitch1" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ "Faith" in an ancient or medeival setting (if based on examples in history) could be monopolized by those who claim to be close to the god(s). This could be possible, at least in part, by the low level of literacy in the general populace of almost every culture. Control over the "Word of God" was enhanced by the fact that most did not have access to books and the reading "skill" in the first place. Literacy levels can definately effect a campaign setting.... Anyone have eny interesting experiences with this in a game? Dan Fitch *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:54:09 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ >>Just say Josh is the one and only god, he likes to visit orphanages on weekends, he is omnipotent, and knows when you've been naughty or nice. If you behave the way he's told you to, he will grant you these nifty powers. Nuff said.<< A paraphrase of what I've been saying all along. Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:53:37 -0800 From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] Xianism in RQ >Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:00:33 +0800 >From: "Matthew Barron" >But _historically_ there's no divine magic. The issue I was speaking to >was determining what kind of divine magic would be available based on what >sort of nature God has in the campaign. I think that there is evidence (fact/story/legend) of effects in history which indeed match the effect of RQ "divine magic." Pope Sylvester had an enchanted item, a "brazen head," which must have been a bound spirit. Many saints (e.g.,. Joan of Arc) displayed the effects of _Divination_ spell. Many martyrs were so protected by _Shield_ spells that extrordinary methods were necessary to dispatch them. The Church record a variety of exorcism by the equivalent of _Spirit_Combat_. In my own campaigns, Christian initiates were allowed divine Intervention via a _d30_ (which was the current novelty die at the time _and_ the POWer cost was usefully self-limiting for game balance) or a _d10_ for some higher ranked characters. We were playing at _Fantasy_Europe_(tm:AH) during the Viking age (centuries 8-9-10 C.E.) near Byzantium. Christian [church] _Priests_ and _Bishops_ were NOT defined as RQ "Priests." RQ "priests" and "rune-lords" usually referred to characters outside the normal political/church hierarchy (they were the martyrs and saints). The Christian priests/presbyters were played as RQ initiates/lay members generally. Those [saints/martyrs] who had access to Xian magic, I gave access to such RQ-spells as Armoring Enchantment Binding Enchantment Strengthening Enchantment (the POWer cost was usefully self-limiting for game balance) Bless Grave Divination Spirit Shield Warding Worship Befuddle Demoralize etc. All of these effects match to history interpreted into gaming parameters. Whether or not they called it "Magic" at the time, the advantages over the enemy match the effects of the gaming parameters of RQ magic. It worked for us. Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:41:10 -0000 From: "Nikk Effingham" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Off-topic Hi all, While this is slightly off-topic, I thought this would be the best place for my question (I know there is a seperate mailing list for this sort of thing, but I just need one simple question answered, b4 the flaming starts : ) I've started playing Dragon Pass lately. In it, fortresses double the Cf of defending units for the purposes of selecting casulties, but Superheros have a Cf of 20, which doubled up means 40. As the maximum Cf of damage you can inflict is 36 (according to my set of rules) and they're immune to basically all magic that could hope to kill them, does this mean Superheros are unkillable within fortresses? If so then surely the scenarios that demand fortresses be occupied are already won by a side with a Superhero (re: Dousing the Flames). As I don't want to hog the digest, please e-mail me off-digest, Apologies and a Happy Christmas to you all! Nikk _____________________________________________ "Tough on Sin, tough on the causes of Sin!" - Surantyr the Nonheretic Nikk Effingham E-Mail: nikk@MailAndNews.com Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/wakboth/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:43:24 -0000 From: "Nikk Effingham" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's address Does anyone have Sandy's e-mail address currently? Cheers in advance, Nikk _____________________________________________ "Tough on Sin, tough on the causes of Sin!" - Surantyr the Nonheretic Nikk Effingham E-Mail: nikk@MailAndNews.com Homepage: http://members.xoom.com/wakboth/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 06:20:37 -0500 (EST) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ Bob Stancliff : >>>After all that's why they obsessively burned witches - they were scared >witless of their magic. > Well, it's more likely because the Law of Moses ordered "Do not allow a >witch to live". Or more accurately, because the Vulgate bible contained that passage. From what I have read, that passage is more accurately translated as refering to 'women who are poisoners'. [Since writing this, I read michael Cule saying pretty much the same thing, but I'm leaving this in my post to back him up.] >That's a broad generalisation that doesn't hold up well in the light of history - >Gnostics, Catholics, Moslems and Jews all believe in the single creator God but >their notions of what he is like are so radically opposed as to be almost >irreconcilable. To suggest that the differences between these religions' view of >God is just textual analysis is both reductionist and dismissive. Can you give me some examples of these opposed views about the nature of god? >Does any GM allow a player to sacrifice for Orlanthi rune magic if he's not an >Orlanthi(or associated at least)? I fail to see your point. We're taking about people who worship the same god, but according to different traditions. Pentan worshipers of West King Wind do get storm magic. >The major point I was trying to suggest is to determine what God thinks about >what characters do so that you can determine how divine rewards/penalties are >doled out. After all this is how Glorantha works and I just thought that any >discussion of how the magic system in a different campaign would work would >benefit from this sort of background development. It's not how Malkionism works, which is the only example of a monotheistic religion in Glorantha. Even Malkionism is riven with sectarian divisions and multilateral accusations of Heresy and Error. Yet the various Malkioni churches all provide magic, often including special magic unique to that sect and appropriate to their particular theological beliefs and religious practices. Surely this is a much better model to work from? Using a polytheistic religion like Orlanth worship as an example seems, well, odd to say the least. Rich Allen : > Faith doesn't apply if your god(s) take an active role in your campaign >world. It's kinda hard to waiver in your belief of a god if that god has >just visited the local country side to perform some godly act in front of >thousands of people. In fact, if the gods have been doing personal >appearances for hundreds of years, the word "faith" probably has no >religious meaning at all. It's not the first time I've come across this argument, and I believe it is a falacy. People in the ancient world, and even many people today, genuinely believe that they have direct proof of their religion. They genuinely believed that many priests, prophets, fakirs and magicians had demonstrable magical powers. How is this different from a Gloranthan? Miracles such as the oil from the ruins of the old temple in jerusalem lasting for (however many days) at Hanuka, the liquefaction of the blood of St Gennaro, the existence of the Shroud of Turin, tears falling from the eyes of a statue of the Virgin Mary, stigmata, etc, etc. Belief in the power of a god or gods deosn't necesserily imply that you accept their moral authority and right to demand worship. The modern conception of atheism - the belief that there is no such thing as god - is a relatively recent development. In pre-enlightenemnet eras it was used to refer to people who's beliefs about god you believe to be untrue. i.e. the god they believe in does not exist, therefore they do not believe in god. Thus many medieval scholars would, had they met any, cheerfuly have categorised theosophists, budhists and zoroastrians as atheists. Faith is the conviction that a particular set of beliefs is true. Losing your faith might mean that you're not be sure which beliefs are true, you might unable to choose a religious philosophy with conviction, or you might change over to a new belief structure. However actualy stopping believing that god, or gods of any kind exist was unheard of. It wasn't realy untill Newton's theories opened up the possibility of a purely mechanical, material, impersonal universe that the modern conception of atheism became credible, as in Nietzche's declaration of 'the death of God'. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:53:24 +0200 From: Olli Kantola Subject: [RQ-RULES] The Cult of Tien Oops! You better watch out. Never use that cult coz' it's a registered trademark of R. Talsorian!!! Strait from the cosmic DragonBall Z RGP!!! THEY are the DragonBalls(tm); seven mystical orbs which, when brought together, can grant their possessor infinite mastery of the cosmos. On the trail of this great treasure-- two ruthless warlords with the ability to destroy entire worlds, and who will stop at nothing to attain the power of the Dragon Balls(tm). Opposing them- a tiny band of Earth's greatest martial arts heroes-determined Krillin (tm), reckless Yamcha (tm), brave Tien(tm), cowardly Yajirobe(tm) and the alien Piccolo(tm). HeeHaw - -- It's lovely to watch colorful shadows in the planets of the eternal light. -The Master *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:08:51 -0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9rgio_Mascarenhas?= Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF5156.37733E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Simon: >Yet the theory of emmanation orriginated in greek philosophy hundreds >of years before christ [skip] Polytheistic greek philosophy also had a >strong influence on some strands of Jewish religious philosophy and >even Islam. Yes, this is why in one of my first messages I mentionned that = Christianism has some elements incorporated from previous polytheistic = religions and magica practices that it superseded (like saints, holy = relics, etc.). That's why I suggested that, if one adopts a depiction of = Christianism that includes such beliefs, the rules can represent this in = a similar way to rules for polytheistic pantehons. >Even in Hunduism, Hindus believe that the individual gods are simply >masks which express facets of a greater divine essence or continuum. >In fact I'm not aware of any major religion that believes in multiple = divine >sources. Yes, but the difference between Hinduism and western religions is that = Hinduism accepts the different religions as, as you say, 'facets of a = greater divine essence or continuum', facets that they place to a = certain extent at the same level. This is not true about Christianism, = Judaism, or Islam. Each one of these religions claims to be the true = expression of the divine, and does not put itself on par with the = others. >Why base the religious philosophy for a historical game on religious >beliefs that, historicaly, nobody has ever held? I don't follow you here. I think that I am proposing conforms to = historicaly held positions in religions matters. >If the game is about the struggle between rival factions of christians, = then >it obviosuly isn't about whether 'the' christsian god is the true god, = but >which version of christianity will come out on top. The game doesn't = even >have to resolve this absolutely in order for the game to succeed. It = may >never be determined who is realy right or wrong. I agree with this to a certain extent. Yet, there are some questions = that the GM still must decide (in a Christian game): what's the role of = Saints? Relics? Manifestations of the Virgin Mary? Miracles? The Devil? The different Christian faiths have different answers to these = questions, and these different answers shape different rules. >In the real world, no compelling, repeatable objective proof of any one >religion has been found. I fail to see why we need to do so in gaming. If the game is about 20th century religious beliefs and practices, I = think you're right. But I think that Michael was thinking about Medieval = or pre modern Christianism. At those times people actually believed in = religious proofs. Theologists and philosophers might disproof certain = proofs in particular, but they would not deny in abstract the = possibility of religious proofs. I think that here it's me that can tell = that you're basing the religious philosophy for a historical game on = religious beliefs that, historicaly, nobody held at the time covered by = the game. >It's simplistic and arbitrary judgements along these lines, such as >Good vs Evil, that put me off AD&D. Once more, I think you're aiming the wrong target. Good vs. Evil is a = central component of Christianism. No game about Christianism can ignore = this. Yes, AD&D did a lousy job when desingning rules to deal with it. = But the correct approach is not to throw away this antinomy. The correct = approach is to design other better rules for it. >>.....Once more, we have two different in-game discourses. The >>game designer must chose which is true. > >Why? Matt answered this better than I could: << Also, on a campaign design note, I don't see why you're so fixed on = maintaining cultural/moral/metaphysical relativity. Where does divine = magic come from? This is the fundamental question that backs any = encounter with a divine mage/priest/saint/prophet etc. After all, who = are you going to believe? The guy who stands up and debates the theology = of his point in a long winded philosophical discourse or the guy who = heals your sick mother and fries your enemies with lightning bolts from = heaven? >> What happens is that the game designer must decide whether this healing = power really comes from God or not. If he decides that it comes from = God, he is bound to decide what's God in his game world, and to make an = hierarchy of divine and evil entities. Otherwise, his game will not be = about Christian religion, but about a creation of his own, that he just = happens to call Christianism. << In polytheistic RQ (like Glorantha) everyone who follows any god can = do some variation of this so the question never arises. But in a = monotheistic universe only those who possess some measure of divine = approval will receive this benefit.=20 OK, you can argue that God is really a divine mathematical function - = put x worship in here and receive y magic effect there - and that any = ideas about what s/he/it likes or dislikes are just cultural = projections, but in that case why run a Christian Europe campaign? >> That's the whole point. << Moral relativism is really hard to maintain in a religious system = where there's only one deity who does interact with human beings. I mean = any deity with the power to answer prayers and grant divine intervention = is probably going to want things their way, no negotiation, no plea = bargain. Remember there's no "Great Compromise" in Christian Europe. >> Since this is a game, the GM mas make up his mind. >So you are saying that all (true) faithfull are by definition equaly >faithfull? I'm sure I've heard monks and clergymen talking often about >strengthening their faith, facing challenges to their faith, guarding >against weakening of their faith, etc. Perhaps I'm mistaken? No. I suppose that this is a religious paradox. Because, on the other = hand, this does not guarantee salvation, and is not required by it. = That's why the inocent (like very young children), even if they don't = know or understand the word of God, can be saved. >It seems to me that when faced with challeges to one's faith, not >everyone meets that challenge sucessfuly. Sometimes the faithfull stray >from propper behaviour due to temptation or weakness, sometimes they >don't. It also seems to mee that it is possible to reduce the chances = of >being tempted by becoming more devoted and committed to one's faith. >In other words, it is possible to reduce the chance of failing a test = of one's >faith. This could be usefully represented by a percentage chance.... >similar to a skill. IMO faith is (to use an ancient classification) a passion, not an = action. It's about emotions, not about knowledge or know-how. Skills = represent the ability to act, not passions. So, faith is not well = represented by skills. Let me try to conciliate what we are both saying: the skill you're = mentioning it's about religious knowledge. What it gives a person is the = ability to understand how the devil operates, and what's the best = behavior to counter its maneuvers. In other words, the person that has = the religious skill and that uses it, organizes his life in order to = avoid the action of the devil. This way he will not face situations = where his faith will be put to test. Let's say that this skill allows = him to 'dodge' the devil. Furthermore, this skill also allows the = faithful to know about the support he can get from his God (saints, = relics, etc.). Using these can help him fighting the devil. These are = like weapons he can use to 'parry' the attacks of the devil or to = 'attack' him. Yet, in order for these skills to be successfuly used, the person must = have faith. And when the skills are not enough to protect him, his faith = will be at risk. He can suffer spiritual 'damage', which means a loss of = faith. So, faith is more like an attribute, or like SAN in CoC, or even = like personality traits in Pendragon. >Atheism in it's modern sense (not believing in any kind of god) is >anachronistic for the period anyway. Yes. Rich: >Faith doesn't apply if your god(s) take an active role in your >campaign world. It's kinda hard to waiver in your belief of a god if >that god has just visited the local country side to perform some >godly act in front of thousands of people. In fact, if the gods have >been doing personal appearances for hundreds of years, the word >"faith" probably has no religious meaning at all. I disagree. We word that's meaningless in such a situation is the notion = of disbelief. In such a game everybody will believe in God. But they may = not have faith in him, in the sence that they don't believe in salvation = through God and religion. 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