From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #177 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, December 29 1999 Volume 02 : Number 177 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:52:59 -0700 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ > Rich: > >Faith doesn't apply if your god(s) take an active role in your > >campaign world. It's kinda hard to waiver in your belief of a god if > > I disagree. We word that's meaningless in such a situation is the > notion of disbelief. In such a game everybody will believe in > God. But they may not have faith in him, in the sence that they > don't believe in salvation through God and religion. Who says "salvation" is part of the religion? Do reincarnationists have salvation as the root of their beliefs? What about animists? Also, in pretty much every mention of faith I've heard as it applies to someone's religion, it's something like "My son died of cancer and he was such a good boy, I've lost my faith in God because he did nothing." Or something along those lines. This doesn't mean lost faith in their salvation through God, but lost faith in God itself. At least to me. Maybe this all means something in Christianity, but I think that whole discussion is off course. In his original post, Michael asked for ideas in a campaign that depicts "a monotheistic faith LIKE Christianity with a basically polytheistic gamesystem like RQ" (emphasis on LIKE is mine). All of this diatribe about Christian origins, beliefs, etc. is basically just a small subset of what is possible in a setting as described by Michael. Rich *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:56:12 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ Bob Stancliff : > Well, it's more likely because the Law of Moses ordered "Do not allow a >witch to live". The same people who burnt witches happily let a dozen other injunctions and commandments fly past without much problem at all. Just 'cause it's in the Bible doesn't mean that Christians do it/have done it. The Mosaic passage is as much justification after the fact as inspiriation for the act. >Can you give me some examples of these opposed views about the nature of god?< Jewish Joke: How many Christians does it take to change a light bulb? Answer:(holding up three fingers)One. The notion of the Trinity is probably the fundamental. This is a notion which Christians have virtually never relinquished and which Jews and Moslems cannot abide. >>Does any GM allow a player to sacrifice for Orlanthi rune magic if he's not an >Orlanthi(or associated at least)? I fail to see your point. We're taking about people who worship the same god, but according to different traditions. Pentan worshipers of West King Wind do get storm magic.< Do the worshippers of West King Wind recognise an Orlanthi Thane from Sartar as a strange brother or as a heretic whose thought, race and memeory should be eradicated from history. Pantheism implies a level of mutual acceptance that is not found in the medieval European forms of monotheism. The characteristic religious attitudes of this era led to brutal and bloody wars and to two of the most evil words in history - inquisition and pogrom. If God backs any one group over another in this world then it would certainly be fundamentally significant in any campaign I ran. >It's not how Malkionism works, which is the only example of a monotheistic religion in Glorantha. Even Malkionism is riven with sectarian divisions and multilateral accusations of Heresy and Error. Yet the various Malkioni churches all provide magic, often including special magic unique to that sect and appropriate to their particular theological beliefs and religious practices. Surely this is a much better model to work from? Using a polytheistic religion like Orlanth worship as an example seems, well, odd to say the least.< I freely confess to being dreadfully poorly informed about Malkionism - most of my Glorantha Lore dates from RQ2. But the impression that I had was that Malkionism provides forms of sorcery, not divine magic, which renders the presence of a divine being somewhat moot. I know that saints are invoked as patrons but again, these saints seem to be adaptations of non Malkioni pantheistic realities. Malkionism is monotheistic in a world which is utterly dominated by pantheistic cultures and religious structures - this is an experience which medieval monotheism never even comes close to. >Belief in the power of a god or gods deosn't necesserily imply that you accept their moral authority and right to demand worship. The modern conception of atheism - the belief that there is no such thing as god - is a relatively recent development. In pre-enlightenemnet eras it was used to refer to people who's beliefs about god you believe to be untrue. i.e. the god they believe in does not exist, therefore they do not believe in god. Thus many medieval scholars would, had they met any, cheerfuly have categorised theosophists, budhists and zoroastrians as atheists.< Well put - I wish I'd said it so well. Faith is the conviction that a particular set of beliefs is true. Losing your faith might mean that you're not be sure which beliefs are true, you might unable to choose a religious philosophy with conviction, or you might change over to a new belief structure. However actualy stopping believing that god, or gods of any kind exist was unheard of. It wasn't realy untill Newton's theories opened up the possibility of a purely mechanical, material, impersonal universe that the modern conception of atheism became credible, as in Nietzche's declaration of 'the death of God'. Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:19:00 -0500 (EST) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Rich Allen : > So you're saying that before the 1700's everyone in the world thought that >some form of diety exited? I don't buy it, but it doesn't really matter. I >think that in ancient times, the village shaman/priest/hedge wizard or >whatever was the villager's only contact with whatever religion exited in >that village. Day to day life for the majority probably had nothing to do >with being pious, faithful, etc. This applied well into the Greek and Roman >empires, I believe. How does faith as stated by Simon apply to these >cultures? In ancient greece and rome every household had it's own god of the hearth, complete with shrine and special family rituals. Many people worshiped their ancestors, praying and sacrificing to them. Religion was very much a central part of most people's lives. Practicaly every taboo or superstition has a religious dimension, in that it relates to beliefs about the spirit world, the afterlife and the divine. Anyone even suspected of blaspheming against the gods, even by accident, was liable to either execution or just impromptue lynching. Your initial statement is disingenuous. Not everyone was a monotheist, but I challenge you to give a single example of a person in the ancient world who denied the existence of a god or gods and denied the existence of a spirit world. A single philosopher, diarist, historian or writer will do. Some ancient greeks may have worshiped the gods out of fear of them, or might even have denied their right to be worshiped, for example, but did anyone deny their existence? > I don't think the majority of the population really gave a rat's >butt. If they needed a good crop, or a good sea voyage, or a baby boy, or >whatever, they made whatever donation was necessary at the appropriate >temple and then probably thought nothing more about it. What's your point? Are you claiming that these people didn't believe the gods existed? If so why the donations? I'm not claiming everyone was thoroughly pious and devout, but if there was a famine they'd be beating down the temple doors to get their prayers and sacrifices fixed quickly enough. > Either way though, modern faith doesn't apply, and so may not be a good >model for a game system meant to represent ancient cultures. In RPGs >dieties are usually represented as actual beings, not philisophical >conjecture. I'm not particularly interested in how religion is treated in generic, anachronistic, lowest common denominator RPGs. We're talking about Runequest games in which religion is a central theme. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:29:36 -0500 (EST) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ Sergio : >Yes, but the difference between Hinduism and western religions is that = >Hinduism accepts the different religions as, as you say, 'facets of a = >greater divine essence or continuum', facets that they place to a = >certain extent at the same level. This is not true about Christianism, = >Judaism, or Islam. Each one of these religions claims to be the true = >expression of the divine, and does not put itself on par with the = >others. They claim to have unique moral authority (except in the case of Islam, which grants specific rights and privileges to Christians and Jews in recognition of their seperate rleigious revelations). However they do not claim to be worshiping different gods, but to be the correct way to worship _the_ god. I'd also point out similarities between the Hindu theory and the christian conception of the Holy Trinity. >I don't follow you here. I think that I am proposing conforms to = >historicaly held positions in religions matters. You were claiming that it's reasonable to say that Allah (the god of Abraham) does exist but that the god of the Jews (also the god of Abraham) doesn't. It might be reasonable to say that the religious insights of one of these religions is wrong and the other is right, but that's quite a different thing. >I agree with this to a certain extent. Yet, there are some questions = >that the GM still must decide (in a Christian game): what's the role of = >Saints? Relics? Manifestations of the Virgin Mary? Miracles? The Devil? > >The different Christian faiths have different answers to these = >questions, and these different answers shape different rules. Of course they do, I have no problem with that. >If the game is about 20th century religious beliefs and practices, I = >think you're right. But I think that Michael was thinking about Medieval = >or pre modern Christianism. At those times people actually believed in = >religious proofs. Theologists and philosophers might disproof certain = >proofs in particular, but they would not deny in abstract the = >possibility of religious proofs. However they never found such a proof. Individuals did believe that they had constructed such proofs, but they were never adopted by any church as official doctrine. > .... I think that here it's me that can tell = >that you're basing the religious philosophy for a historical game on = >religious beliefs that, historicaly, nobody held at the time covered by = >the game. Which belief is that? Please point it out. I'm afraid I don't follow you. Please, name one proof of the existence of god that was accepted as doctrine by the mediaeval church? is that even what you're talking about? >Once more, I think you're aiming the wrong target. Good vs. Evil is a = >central component of Christianism. No game about Christianism can ignore = >this.... AD&D presents Good as being an objectively verifiable phenomenon independent of religious belief. Are you saying that christians believe that the existence of objective goodness has nothing to do with the existence of god? >>>.....Once more, we have two different in-game discourses. The >>>game designer must chose which is true. >> >>Why? > >Matt answered this better than I could: > >>After all, who = >>are you going to believe? The guy who stands up and debates the theology = >>of his point in a long winded philosophical discourse or the guy who = >>heals your sick mother and fries your enemies with lightning bolts from = >>heaven? >> Why not someone who does both? Are you saying that divine magical power is not attainable by philopsophers and prophets? What if the lightning thrower is in league with the devil? I don't think that's an answer at all. it doesn't even look remotely like an answer. ><< In polytheistic RQ (like Glorantha) everyone who follows any god can = >do some variation of this so the question never arises. But in a = >monotheistic universe only those who possess some measure of divine = >approval will receive this benefit.=20 Are you saying that christians believed that only christians could have supernatural powers? What about witches, satanists and sorcerers? According to christian beliefs pagans and heretics clearly can have apparently miraculous powers, so I fail to see your point. No proof can be based on the possession of miraculous powers alone and still be consistent with christian beliefs. >Remember there's no "Great Compromise" in Christian Europe. >> But god did grant us free will. Quabalism has a lot of interesting stuff to say on this subject, as does Sufism. >IMO faith is (to use an ancient classification) a passion, not an = >action. It's about emotions, not about knowledge or know-how. Skills = >represent the ability to act, not passions. So, faith is not well = >represented by skills. Of course it shouldn't be a skill, but you can still use similar or even the same game mechanics, as per Pendragon. What exactly are we arguing about? Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:25:28 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ All the religious debate is fascinating and all, but has anyone actually taken the step of creating a cult based around the precepts being tossed around here? Or even a cult based around one of the multitude of saints? - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 18:20:55 -0700 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ > In ancient greece and rome every household had it's own god of the hearth, > complete with shrine and special family rituals. Many people How do you know that? Did every household in ancient Greece and Rome leave a detailed account of their daily lives? What about the remote villages? No, I didn't think so. While I cannot prove that there were people in ancient times that had no religious beliefs, you cannot prove that their were none. > Your initial statement is disingenuous. Not everyone was a monotheist, but > I challenge you to give a single example of a person in the > ancient world who denied the existence of a god or gods and denied the existence of > a spirit world. I never once said that I that ancients may have denied the existence of gods. I asserted that while everyone may have believed in the existence of some kind of deity, the majority probably didn't care much about it beyond that. I also did not restrict the query to ancient peoples!!! The statement (I don't know who's) was that atheism only came about in the last two hundred years. So, are you saying that there were no atheists in the 1700's?? That's what I disagreed with. > What's your point? Are you claiming that these people didn't > believe the gods > existed? If so why the donations? I'm not claiming everyone was thoroughly > pious and devout, but if there was a famine they'd be beating > down the temple > doors to get their prayers and sacrifices fixed quickly enough. Exactly! And if times were prosperous, the majority probably didn't give their gods a second thought. But once again you're applying my question about the recent past to what might have been in ancient times, and that's not what I said. > I'm not particularly interested in how religion is treated in generic, > anachronistic, lowest common denominator RPGs. We're talking > about Runequest > games in which religion is a central theme. Are we? I thought we were talking about a RQ game in which the GM wanted to explore a monotheistic setting that was similar to Christianity. Why does this have to mean that religion must be a central theme?? Rich *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:03:33 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ >How do you know that? Did every household in ancient Greece and Rome leave a detailed account of their daily lives? What about the remote villages? No, I didn't think so. While I cannot prove that there were people in ancient times that had no religious beliefs, you cannot prove that their were none.< This is a little silly - to modify the statement to fit your argument - there is absolutely no historical evidence that atheism preexisted the advent of the scientific mind set and the innovation of humanism. To say that we cannot categorically state that there were no atheists in the pre enlightenment is the same as saying we cannot categorically state that there were no 747 jets in the pre enlightenment - it's logically true but historically absurd. >I never once said that I that ancients may have denied the existence of gods. I asserted that while everyone may have believed in the existence of some kind of deity, the majority probably didn't care much about it beyond that. I also did not restrict the query to ancient peoples!!! The statement (I don't know who's) was that atheism only came about in the last two hundred years. So, are you saying that there were no atheists in the 1700's?? That's what I disagreed with.< No one stated, or intimated that everyone in the pre enlightenment cared about the existence of god(s). Also you seem to be confusing atheism - the committed disbelief in the existence of any divine being - with agnosticism - basic spiritual apathy and/or pragmatism. A vast number of people in the pre humanist past may have been functionally agnostic - not sure, don't really care, but hey if it will stop the drought, here's fifty denarii. >And if times were prosperous, the majority probably didn't give their gods a second thought. But once again you're applying my question about the recent past to what might have been in ancient times, and that's not what I said.< Quick question - what is the "recent past". Most of this thread has been about the Dark/Middle Ages in Europe, 600 - 1000years ago. This isn't recent. >> I'm not particularly interested in how religion is treated in generic, >> anachronistic, lowest common denominator RPGs. We're talking >> about Runequest >> games in which religion is a central theme. >Are we? I thought we were talking about a RQ game in which the GM wanted to >explore a monotheistic setting that was similar to Christianity. Why does >this have to mean that religion must be a central theme?? Medieval Christianity dominated the whole of Europe, it functionally controlled education, had massive influence on international politics - such as it was, systematically hunted down and exterminated conflicting ideals and ideas until the renaissance. How could you have a Christian European campaign and not have religion as the central theme - and why would you want to? Additional - My messages keep bouncing. Simon's point about the enemies of God having supernatural powers is well taken. Tal's request for actual work ups is probably thed most constructive thing that's been said in this thread for days/weeks. Thanks to both. Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #177 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.