From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #7 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Monday, January 10 2000 Volume 03 : Number 007 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Illumination Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods Re: [RQ-RULES] Aztecs [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods Re: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals Re: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods Re: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:44:34 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Illumination >>>Question 3: What's the deal with Illumination? This seems to really raise some major questions about the relationship between mortals and their divinities. >Illumination is a mystical insight. Mysticism is not the same as theism and mystics have a very different view of the nature of gods and their relationship to mortals than theists do. In a sense, they can seperate out those parts of themselves which 'belong' to a cult and only show the relevent part of themselves when they want to. An Orlanthi Vivamort worshiper standing before Orlanth appesrs to be simply an Orlanthi. His relationship to Vivamort is completely invisible to Orlanth. It's simply none of Orlanth's business.<< Thanks for this. I don't agree with all of it but the reasonings clear and helpful. >>This works because an illuminate doesn't necesserily see any incompatibility between Orlanthi and Vivamorti religious beliefs. He is able to justify both to himself without guilt. A non-illuminated orlanthi who tried this would wear his guilt like a neon sign (in a spiritual sense).<< Is guilt the prime way that deities judge transgressions? How does a deity cope with someone with amoral personality disorder? A person whose psyche is dysfunctional can feel no guilt. I gotta believe a deity can keep better track of their followers than whether or not they feel guilty. >>In the case of deities like Orlanth etc., loads of followers. You go awol and Orlanth just hops on the line to all his priests in the area and anti chaos thanes are hunting you down as we speak.<< >An illuminate knows that Orlanth cannot do this to them.< Why not? >In a sense the illuminate becomes invisible to Orlanth, who now has no moral authority over him.< How come Orlanth can't sense this fact? Surely if something this fundamental changes in his relationship with his worshipper it'd show in the spirit plane - to a god at least. Important side point - isn't Orlanth himself illuminated? Certainly Yelm is. If Illuminated mortals can sense illumination in others then couldn't illuminated deities? >>Orlanth has no more knowledge of or authority over an illuminated Orlanthi than he has over ordinary members of other religions. How much authority does Orlanth have over a priest of Yelm in Raibanth? That's how much authority he has over an Illuminated priest of Orlanth in Boldhome. How do other Orlanthi know that this guy has become a Vampire? If he conceals the fact and keeps his nose clean in public, who's to tell?<< I would have thought that being demoralised in sunlight would be a bit of a give away - still if he's an Orlanthi and only comes out when it's cloudy or dark he could argue that he's really devout. Pallid skin, disinterest in ordinary food, a general disdain for you mere mortals aging away like the fools you are ha ha ha....ahem, sorry don't what came over me. A vampire who's hiding his nature should be under constant pressure to keep hidden and not be albe to just wave illumination in the GM's face like a get out of jail free card. Anyway, it's interesting stuff I think Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:30:53 +0000 From: William Wenz Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods Hello, I was wrong, it was Wyrms Footnotes #12 that had the article on divination and divine intervention by Greg Stafford. Here are some excerpts that paint a picture of gods being extremely powerful beings, lords of their own realms, yet severely limited outside those realms. "In general, the gods are not omnisecnt, or omni-anything. They are limited by their own capabilities and, more severely, by their binding outside of time." On Divination: "Guidelines to be used must begin with an understanding that a god will know those things which occurred to him, and also have a good idea of what has happened to his Rune Lords and Priests who are, in fact, extensions of the god. "This does not mean that the god can tell one worshipper what another Rune Lord or Rune Priest of the same cult is thinking. The individual is inviolate in this respect. The god is incapable of invading a person's mind. The knowledge which Rune Lords and Rune Priests give to the god must be volunteered by the Rune level." "It is possible to keep private thoughts private from the god. It is not possible to keep one's thoughts about the god private, for positive or negative. A deity will know when a Rune Master loses fait, plots against him, or whatever." "Initiates are accepted into the fold of their god's power but are not significant enough to be able to transmit specific information to the god." "Gods are able to divine where their worshippers are and also general trends taking place within their own realms." "However, even this ability does not mean that Olanth can tell you everything that is happening that is in contact with the air." On Divine Intervention: "The god cannot do what is beyond his realm." "Only a earth deity could cause their to be a hole in the ground through Divine Intervention." "Fire gods can raise or lower temperatures, though an air god might bring about a cooling effect by a breeze and a water deity could do it with a gush of cold water." *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 02:05:01 EST From: SPerrin@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods In a message dated 1/9/2000 8:22:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, BarroM@STGEOTCE.training.wa.gov.au writes: << Gods have their own agendas - and I was always under the impression that one of Orlanth's was the destruction of chaos. Of course this could just be my limited Glorantha Lore showing again. - ------------------- Well, while Orlanth dislikes Chaos, and would certainly fight Chaos if it got in his way or encroached in his territory, fighting Chaos is not number one on his priority list. Being a good ruler is high (Orlanth the King). Keeping Yelm from being too uppity is high. Having glorious adventures that might involve fighting a manifestation of Chaos is high. If you want a religion that emphasizes fighting Chaos, though, try Storm Bull or Zorak Zoran. ------------------------------------- >>>The behavior Orlanth is looking for is sacrifice of POW and (depending on your approach to the subject, it has always been a subject of discussion) magic points from his worshippers to maintain his personal power (with a small "p"). If the worshipper is not a sincere worshipper, he cannot get the juice from the worshipper, and doesn't care about the worshipper. A broo-killer who worships the Storm Bull is not doing Orlanth any good.<<< Again - agendas. Is Orlanth interested in driving back chaos or not? If yes then he's gonna want his worshippers slaughtering chaos beasties - ie broos. It advances one of his agendas. Your point about the actions of non Orlanthi feels like a bit of a non sequitor. I was not suggesting that Orlanth backed all actions against chaos. All Orlanthi slaughter broos but not all slaughterers of broos are Orlanthi. - ------------------------------------ My point here is that Orlanth gives something to his worshippers because he receives their true worship. Anyone can kill broos (if they don't kill him first). Orlanthi who go after broos after being blessed by the priest and participating in a ceremony to build up their war magic (and thereby giving worship to Orlanth) he pays attention to. Note the true worship phrase. If the worshipper isn't sincere, Orlanth receives no benefit, and neither does the worshipper. - ----------------------------------------- >>Again, if he doesn't give a toss why does he bother having a cult and worshippers. Cut 'em loose and stick the Godsplane. By implication, any God who bothers to dole out divine magic has a vested interest in the actions and behaviours of mortals.<< >>>Yes, because that worship keeps him alive. If he didn't pay attention to the cult, his little part of the Godplane would start falling apart.<<< Now we have the notion of worshippers as a POW harvest. Hi I'm Orlanth and you worshippers are the cattle that I feed off. No one's going to worship that!! - ------------------------------------------------- (1) Orlanth never expresses the situation that way to his worshippers. He may not even realize it is the case. It's just a metagame way of establishing the relationship. Your metagame may vary--this is the Perrin interpretation. (2) The worshippers are not the cattle he feeds off of. The worshippers are the reason he exists at all (like a movie star's fan base). Besides feeding him Power, they are the reason he exists at all. - -------------------------------- >>>As long as you do it in Orlanth's name. But don't bother telling him about it--he knows. <<< How does he know? This is one of the questions that I started off with. How much does Orlanth know and to what extent do you (the GM) think that the players can fake it? - --------------------------------------- I'll go with Greg Stafford's statement, as quoted elsewhere. In general the gods do not listen in on the thoughts of their worshippers. What the worshippers says in the presence of their god (and in the case of Orlanth that is just about anywhere with access to open air) they can hear. And they can see what their Priests and Lords are doing as long as their attention is called to the event by prayer (which can be as simple as a battlecry "For Orlanth!"), except in areas where other gods hold sway. - ---------------------------------------- >>Actually, all mythology is replete with examples of heroes who defied the gods.<< Fair point. I said something similar in a previous post. Generally though it was the "bad" gods that got beaten or duped. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single Greek hero (for example) who defied Zeus - Hades sure but not the big guy. -------------------------- Bellerophon defied all the gods by attempting to ride Pegasus to Olympus. Zeus struck him down with a lightning bolt. And don't discount Poseidon and Hades. In their own realms they are as powerful as their brother. Steve Perrin, who does not claim to have the true word, just one that makes sense within the game *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 02:05:02 EST From: SPerrin@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Aztecs In a message dated 1/8/2000 9:34:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, MurfNMurf@aol.com writes: << Speaking of Ringworld, ( now that I'm wandering Off Topic) how simular is the equipment to the FutureWorld book? Im thinking of 86ing my traveller rules and using BRP >> Two answers: 1) Ringworld and Future World technology is very different in names and special effects 2) Ringworld weapons could be used fine in Future World, and vice versa. Steve Perrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 02:16:53 EST From: MurfNMurf@aol.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals Hey gang, For a while now I've been wondering just what happened to Elementals from RQ2 to RQ3. Anyone have any idea why they're so much smaller volume-wise in RQ3? Waiting for illumination, Your pal, -Ken- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:25:28 +0800 From: "Matthew Barron" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods Thanks to one and all. Some interesting reflections. They have been incorporated into my musings on these subjects. Suffice it to say i think I'll run my deity a little different to Glorantha. Query about elementals inspired by Ken's question - if elementals need an amount of their element in which to manifest when summoned, do they need an amount of their element present in order to manifest from a binding? Also, does anyone have any elemental vs. elemental combat rules? See I've often kind of thought that the best way to defeat a salamander would be with an undine. What do others think? Matt B. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:29:41 PST From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals Hey gang, For a while now I've been wondering just what happened to Elementals from RQ2 to RQ3. Anyone have any idea why they're so much smaller volume-wise in RQ3? - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Elementals in RQ3 are more difficult to summon/bind and can not be easily dismissed. In RQ2 there were different spells used to summon different size of elemental, but RQ3 the summoning spell is the same and must beat the elemental in spirit combat. The bigger the elemental the higher the power, thus more difficult to bind. The average character thus is limited to an elemental of about 4d6 cubic meters to have a reasonable chance of success. Leon Kirshtein www.geocities.com/leonbk/ "No good deed shall go unpunished." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:21:15 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals > Hey gang, > For a while now I've been wondering just what happened to Elementals from > RQ2 to RQ3. Anyone have any idea why they're so much smaller volume-wise in > RQ3? > -Ken- It seems to me that there are bigger Elementals available now... in RQ2 there were small, medium and large Elementals (but how large was large?). In RQ3 you can pick the size you want, in cubic meters, and the stats and abilities are proportional. IMO Elementals used to be really bad combat spirits and it took a good Dismiss spell to get rid of one. Now they are more killable, and I think that this supports better game balance. It is still possibly to get a really big elemental, but I would only expect a priest of an elemental cult to try... usually with divine aid. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:29:32 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Divine Magic & the gods > Query about elementals inspired by Ken's question - > if elementals need an amount of their element in which to manifest when summoned, do they need an amount of their element present in order to manifest from a binding? The magic rules on bindings suggests that the elemental's 'body' is stored in the bind with it and is of the necessary amount. IMG we play that one point of POW for binding is only good for 20 pt's of Stat, so to bind large spirits, binds must be more expensive, since 2 or 3 POW must be allocated to the largest stat of some spirits and Elementals. > Also, does anyone have any elemental vs. elemental combat rules? See I've often kind of thought that the best way to defeat a salamander would be with an undine. What do others think? While it might be appropriate to bend the rules in this case, the normal combat of an undine is to suffocate a foe, but the salamander's entire body is generating damage. The salamander would always win unless the undine would be permitted to 'suffocate' the flames of the salamander. Just an option... Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:52:17 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Those pesky Elementals > Elementals in RQ3 are more difficult to summon/bind and can not be easily > dismissed. In RQ2 there were different spells used to summon different size > of elemental, but RQ3 the summoning spell is the same and must beat the > elemental in spirit combat. The bigger the elemental the higher the power, > thus more difficult to bind. The average character thus is limited to an > elemental of about 4d6 cubic meters to have a reasonable chance of success. > Leon Kirshtein Since only a shaman can initiate spirit combat with an elemental, Control is the hardest way to get one. Dominate or Command is generally better. RQ3 Elementals are very killable unless you have neophyte characters. They can certainly cause some grief though, and wraiths are just as bad. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #7 *********************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. 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