From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #72 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, August 8 2000 Volume 03 : Number 072 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) Re: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) Re: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor RE: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) [RQ-RULES] Guns & Armour [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) Re: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor [RQ-RULES] Guns and Plate.... RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:28:58 +0100 From: "Dawson Ricky (RD)" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) Well thanks for the quick replies - looks like our GM's has slightly ballsed up on this one...... I gather that most of the stuff that Bob's talking about is in the 3rd edition rule book - which slightly hampers proceedings as we've only got (I think) one of those between us - most of us are veterans of the RQ2 system and only just getting back into the swing of things...but at least this clears up the problem....especially the defensive capabilities of the Shaman (I mean adding his Power + Fetches when resisting - I know that this was definitely not done in the session). Also one last point on this in the RQ2 Rule book it states that Shaman's can store an (unlimited) amount of Power in the spirit plane - can this stored power be used if the shaman is attacked by malign spirits as well ? As you can tell its been a while since we played - so more than a bit rusty in the 'rules' department. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 10:26:02 -0400 From: rico@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor Astor wrote: > It seems to me that seven points of plate would > effectively stop a shot, but the amount > of kinetic energy in the shot would still be > absorbed by the body. Well, plate armor couldn't stop an arrow shot from an english longbow, so unless it was heavily modified, as Steve Perrin suggested, there's no way it would stop a bullet either. Consider that the velocity and force of a ball shot from a musket would be quite a bit more than an arrow. Even if you decide to allow very thick armor to compensate, I would apply knockback to any shot that hits. Also consider that even if the bullet fails to penetrate the armor, it's likely that the impact would produce a good sized dent in the armor that would constantly be pressing into the character. This may not translate as damage at the initial hit, but imagine having your armor constantly poking you in the ribs until you could get it off. Enough of these 'dents' would incapacitate just about anyone without doing much physical damage. I'm not sure how this could be incorporated into RQ rules though. Oh, and personally I would rule that muskets do 1d6+4 damage. They should be able to penetrate 5 points of armor easily. In a world setting such as you describe, I imagine protection spells are in high demand! Heavy armor would probably only be used in those areas that had little or no musket use, as it costs too much, weighs too much, and doesn't protect enough against muskets. Hard or studded leather armor with a good protection spell or three would be much better where the threat of gunfire is more common. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:21:27 +0100 From: "Meirion Hopkins" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) From: Ricky Dawson > The first assault was on the Shaman who was immediately knocked to the > ground writhing in agony (he had no spirit shield up !!..dah ! - nor did the > GM account for the time it takes for a spirit to coalesce), instead they > followed the normal rules for spirit combat with the Shaman losing and the > spirit taking possession of his body (and thus leaving the Shaman as a > discorporate spirit). This sound like it might have been RQ2 spirit combat? This is a lot more 'lethal' than RQ3 version - it only takes one win to posess an individual, rather than beating them down to 0mp/10 less (and 0mp = cease to exist!). Also in RQ2 a shaman's fetch's POW is not added to their resistance, they can however 'store power on the spirit plane' to aid their defence. As pain spirits are a sub-type of passion spirit they don't force the victim's spirit to leave the body. They use covert possession - the victim remains in control of their body once they regain MPs, but all the victim's skills are reduced by a %=to the pain spirit's POW. > Now my question for you is how do PC's rid themselves of these spirits ? As > physical entities cannot initiate spirit combat it makes it quite hard for > the characters to rid themselves of these (especially as this could allow an > annoying GM to constantly harass the party with these encounters)...we had a > number of ideas (none particularly awe inspiring - such as well let's kill > them and then use Resurrection to bring them back - thus forcing the spirit > of pain to leave the PC's body (+ also losing the poor unfortunate PC any > spirits he/she may have bound). Or would any GM rule that if we killed the > summoner the spirits would return to the spirit plane ? If this is RQ2 then one way would be for the shaman to get his/her fetch to attack the spirit. I never used these rules in play (we didn't have may spirits in our RQ2 games) so can't suggest any other options. One RQ2&3 options would be to finding a stronger shaman to exorcise the spirit. In RQ3, the shaman could learn the spell Control Pain Spirit, cast his Spirit Screen (preferably using MPs from a store) and then engage it in spirit combat again, but now prepared. The spirits will not leave just because the summoner is killed. > The other problem we have is that the GM only allowed Battle (spirit)?Rune > (Divine) magic that is listed in the main RQ2 rulebook !!.....I have a > priest in this game and I only have personal protection from spirits (such > as spirit shield & spirit block) with no spells that I can cast on someone > who has been possessed..... This is the problem with using just the RQ2 rulebook spell lists. You will also notice that there are NO attacking or healing RUNE spells (including resurrection). These spells are covered by the Runepower spells which are mentioned. Hope this is of some help, but if you can provide details of the exact system used for spirit combat then I'll have another go ;-) Meirion *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:33:06 +0100 From: "Meirion Hopkins" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor From: James Welch IV > I am currently running a Runequest game set in the world of Harn. The level > of technology and culture is loosely based upon the European Renaissance. > Thus there is gunpowder, and weapons including muskets, pistols, and cannon. > In earth's history, gunpowder made armor, at least in the medieval sense, > obsolete. However, in my game, since guns are still at a relatively low > state of development and not universally in use, armor is still around at a > very high state of craftsmanship. How effective would Brigandine or Plate > Armor, or even treated leather be against muskets or pistols? It seems to > me that seven points of plate would effectively stop a shot, but the amount > of kinetic energy in the shot would still be absorbed by the body. For > instance, I have pistols doing a d10 of damage. Just incase you have never seen them, the dwarf firearms stats from Elder Secrets are (both impale): MUSKET Str/Dex 11/10 Dam 2d10 Ap10 Enc6 Range40m Rate 1/3MR Base5% PISTOL Str/Dex 11/12 Dam 2d6+2 Ap7 Enc3 Range10m Rate 1/2MR Base5% > If someone wearing a seven > point breastplate was hit by a pistol shot doing only six points of damage, > would they simply be able to shrug it off, at least according to the > Runequest combat system? If this is the case, then why was armor considered > useless by the time the Renaissance rolled around? Pendragon has a rule for slings that a minimum of 1/3 of rolled damage is inflicted to represent the percussive effect of the weapon, which might transfer quite well. Magic protection may or may not ignore this effect, up to you. Meirion *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:57:29 +0100 From: "Dawson Ricky (RD)" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) Thanks Meirion: The problem i think is that the GM is using -for the majority of the time the RQ2 Rules - yet interspresed with these are bits he has take/used from RQ3. Basically we were stuffed - as the PC's are only allowed RQ2 !!.. I've now read all of the thoughts of the people on the list and I think its time for our GM to have a read as well - stop mixing up the 2 distinctly different rulings for Shaman and decide on one version only. You can definitely say that again about RQ2 Spirit combat t is definitely more deadly, and the problem is in some ways a bit harsh for semi-new players to cope with. Thanks agian - the advice from everybody has been well appreciated. Ricky - -----Original Message----- From: Meirion Hopkins [mailto:Meirion@ukgateway.net] Sent: 08 August 2000 16:21 To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) From: Ricky Dawson > The first assault was on the Shaman who was immediately knocked to the > ground writhing in agony (he had no spirit shield up !!..dah ! - nor did the > GM account for the time it takes for a spirit to coalesce), instead they > followed the normal rules for spirit combat with the Shaman losing and the > spirit taking possession of his body (and thus leaving the Shaman as a > discorporate spirit). This sound like it might have been RQ2 spirit combat? This is a lot more 'lethal' than RQ3 version - it only takes one win to posess an individual, rather than beating them down to 0mp/10 less (and 0mp = cease to exist!). Also in RQ2 a shaman's fetch's POW is not added to their resistance, they can however 'store power on the spirit plane' to aid their defence. As pain spirits are a sub-type of passion spirit they don't force the victim's spirit to leave the body. They use covert possession - the victim remains in control of their body once they regain MPs, but all the victim's skills are reduced by a %=to the pain spirit's POW. > Now my question for you is how do PC's rid themselves of these spirits ? As > physical entities cannot initiate spirit combat it makes it quite hard for > the characters to rid themselves of these (especially as this could allow an > annoying GM to constantly harass the party with these encounters)...we had a > number of ideas (none particularly awe inspiring - such as well let's kill > them and then use Resurrection to bring them back - thus forcing the spirit > of pain to leave the PC's body (+ also losing the poor unfortunate PC any > spirits he/she may have bound). Or would any GM rule that if we killed the > summoner the spirits would return to the spirit plane ? If this is RQ2 then one way would be for the shaman to get his/her fetch to attack the spirit. I never used these rules in play (we didn't have may spirits in our RQ2 games) so can't suggest any other options. One RQ2&3 options would be to finding a stronger shaman to exorcise the spirit. In RQ3, the shaman could learn the spell Control Pain Spirit, cast his Spirit Screen (preferably using MPs from a store) and then engage it in spirit combat again, but now prepared. The spirits will not leave just because the summoner is killed. > The other problem we have is that the GM only allowed Battle (spirit)?Rune > (Divine) magic that is listed in the main RQ2 rulebook !!.....I have a > priest in this game and I only have personal protection from spirits (such > as spirit shield & spirit block) with no spells that I can cast on someone > who has been possessed..... This is the problem with using just the RQ2 rulebook spell lists. You will also notice that there are NO attacking or healing RUNE spells (including resurrection). These spells are covered by the Runepower spells which are mentioned. Hope this is of some help, but if you can provide details of the exact system used for spirit combat then I'll have another go ;-) Meirion *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:15:34 +0100 From: "Gavin McIntyre" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Guns & Armour James Welch IV wrote: >I am currently running a Runequest game set in the world of Harn. The level >of technology and culture is loosely based upon the European Renaissance. >Thus there is gunpowder, and weapons including muskets, pistols, and cannon. >In earth's history, gunpowder made armor, at least in the medieval sense, >obsolete. However, in my game, since guns are still at a relatively low >state of development and not universally in use, armor is still around at a >very high state of craftsmanship. How effective would Brigandine or Plate >Armor, or even treated leather be against muskets or pistols? It seems to >me that seven points of plate would effectively stop a shot, but the amount >of kinetic energy in the shot would still be absorbed by the body. For >instance, I have pistols doing a d10 of damage. If someone wearing a seven >point breastplate was hit by a pistol shot doing only six points of damage, >would they simply be able to shrug it off, at least according to the >Runequest combat system? If this is the case, then why was armor considered >useless by the time the Renaissance rolled around? Instead of increasing the damage caused by a bullet why not borrow from GURPS and have the bullets do an armour devisor of say 2. This means that armour is only half as effective but that any damage that get through the armour is not OTT. e.g. Armour 8 points Bullet does say six, armour absorbes 4 with 2 damge getting through. Gavin. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:26:50 -0400 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor I remember two quotes from accounts of Waterloo. One was of cuirassiers charging infantry, and witnesses thought they heard the sound of musket balls bouncing off their metal breastplates. But, the other is of some soldiers trying to cook in a breastplate after the battle, and finding that the stew was running out of the bullet holes. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:55:30 EDT From: SPerrin@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirits & Spirit Combat Question (longish) In a message dated 8/8/00 6:43:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Ricky.Dawson@celexa.co.uk writes: > > Also one last point on this in the RQ2 Rule book it states that Shaman's can > store an (unlimited) amount of Power in the spirit plane - can this stored > power be used if the shaman is attacked by malign spirits as well ? > > Don't think we said so in the 2nd edition book, but it certainly would be appropriate. Steve Perrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:00:55 EDT From: SPerrin@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Armor In a message dated 8/8/00 10:39:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AndrewBarton@compuserve.com writes: > I remember two quotes from accounts of Waterloo. > > One was of cuirassiers charging infantry, and witnesses > thought they heard the sound of musket balls bouncing > off their metal breastplates. But, the other is of some > soldiers trying to cook in a breastplate after the battle, > and finding that the stew was running out of the bullet holes. > > Were these the same breastplates? Did the metal stop enough of the impetus of the bullets so, even though they penetrated, they had lost enough power that they were absorbed into the quilting underneath and perhaps just bruised the recipient? So when you take off the breastplate the shot just drops to the ground unnoticed? Or perhaps the bullets were stopped, but cracked the armor, so that the stew ran out. Or were the cooks looting bodies? Steve Perrin, who wants to know more... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:54:04 +0100 From: "Dom Twist" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Guns and Plate.... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C00172.6782D1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Firearms and armour were around together a fair while before the = eventualy triumph of the gun. After all the English Longbow and the Crossbow were also capable of = penetrating armour......ask the French after Agincor! The The English Civil war springs to mind.....muskets were 'common' but = the use of plate armour was common enough by those rich enough to equip = themselves or their men with it.....although many assumed that a good = leather coat would do just as well... Thaz - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C00172.6782D1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Firearms and armour were around together a fair = while before=20 the eventualy triumph of the gun.
 
After all the English Longbow and the Crossbow were = also=20 capable of penetrating armour......ask the French after = Agincor!
 
 
The The English Civil war springs to = mind.....muskets were=20 'common' but the use of plate armour was common enough by those rich = enough to=20 equip themselves or their men with it.....although many assumed that a = good=20 leather coat would do just as well...
 
 
Thaz
- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C00172.6782D1A0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #72 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.