From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.ient.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #61 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, May 31 2001 Volume 04 : Number 061 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Steed of Vengeance RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Vladmir's Little Green Amulet RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Bloodlust RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : The Emperor's New Clothes > Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Through the Eyes of the Dead [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #60 RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell System Metalogic RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Lungs of the Herald RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : The Emperor's New Clothes RE: [RQ-RULES] Succubae Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: Inimitable Tailor Spell RE: [RQ-RULES] Succubae RE: [RQ-RULES] Succubae RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:07:36 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Steed of Vengeance > > Since most mounts have CON over 23, the likelihood > > of death is usually 5%. > Good point. but the CON for a Horse is 3D6 so it will kill a > good proportion. If the spell worked on Rhinos then it would > have to be CON x2 Oops, it is only STR and SIZ that are greatly elevated, sorry. I think that if you are going to allow the spell, it should work on any mount. I wouldn't change the CON roll just because some animals are tougher or healthier than others. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:36:00 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Vladmir's Little Green Amulet > This one is here based on the Medicine bundle rules. > And all those bits in Fantasy novels where the hedge > witch gets asked for something of the sort. I see the similarity, but those hedge witches in books are not casting Gloranthan spirit magic, they are casting minor sorceries. I don't think anyone does shamanism in stories quite the way Greg does. The closest I remember is the 'Sword of Truth' series where the ancestor spirits are summoned to provide information and prophesy. The rest of the magic in those books is certainly sorcery. > The divine equivalent, which is the Vingan's dyeing their > hair doesn't require sacrifice and thus ends up in that > limbo that the Head Crushing song lives in. I don't believe the Vingan hair dying forces infertility, but it might be a side effect of using henna. The ritual is just an initiation into the cult, and would require a POW sacrifice to join. I remember that a fan wrote a Vinga cult description that supported the infertility opinion, but it was never recognized as official. I think that Vingans can have children, though they might consider switching back to Ernalda if they do. The head crushing song is part of a group of rituals that have rather magical effects without being written as spells or enchantments. RQ and HW don't have rules for these, though HW can improvise them, but they are clearly considered to exist. Burial rituals fall in the same general group. Here is a meta-physical Gloranthan question: If an unpunished rape creates a Succubus, is rape very rare, or Succubae very common? In 'Shadows on the Borderland', the young shamaness, Penliss, was being abused by a Succubus, but didn't know quite what it was or how to get rid of it. If they were common, most people would have heard "don't rape or you will summon this evil demon". Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:44:14 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Bloodlust > Uraine sounds like a good Idea, Gargath is possible. > > >I might suggest changing it to 1 in 3 points given. > > You might be right. On the other hand given a cult granting > it isn't going have access to most of the usual healing > resources. > > How about being incompatible with Shield, Protection and > Damage Resistance? Aside from Shargash, most of these cults probably don't have Shield or Damage Resistance, someone else would have to cast it on them. For that matter, they would have a problem getting good metal armor. I don't see a compatibility problem. This spell would work as a defense compensator for weak armors and make their greatest leaders just a little more difficult to kill. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:47:29 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : The Emperor's New Clothes > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:03:15 -0400 > From: Robert Stancliff > > > the caster would have to provide the unseen details. > > > Illusions are normally real so, the details show through > > as it were. > > Adam > No, this is a misunderstanding of the > concept of a Gloranthan > illusion. Illusions don't make something > transparent or invisible, they lay > an alternate image over the reality, and that > image is all that can be seen > or perceived until the spell ends. It is real in > the sense that it can not > be disbelieved. From P118 of the Reprint Deluxe Edition A sound illusion cast on a noisy target will mask contradictory noises and the same is true for contradicting tastes, sights etc. If one laid an Illusion that the persons clothes were a mole on his back, the contradictory visual information from the clothing would be suppressed. Adam *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:47:31 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: > Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Through the Eyes of the Dead > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:32:35 -0400 > From: "Leon B Kirshtein" > > > Adam Benedict Canning wrote: > > > > > > > > Through the Eyes of the Dead > > > > 1 point spirit spell, temporal, touch > > > This is an interesting variation of a Lankhor Mhy > > > knowledge spell > > > (Reconstruction?). > > > > Reconstruction is a lot more powerful, it shows you a 15 > > minute period in the past you specify. > > > > Its also a lot more annoying to GM. > Defiantly a divine spell, My thought is that it is not powerful enough to rate as a 1pt reusable divine spell. > unless you make it a > summoning of the dead > person's spirit and it in effect temporarily > possess you to allow you > to see through their eyes. This way it could be > a lot of fun, it may > not want to leave :) More temporarily impressing the deceased spirit onto his blood [You could claim I was binding the soul very temporarily into the deceased blood.] It comes from that folk tradition about being able to see a murderer in the eyes of his victims. Via it has to be said Lord Darcy. Adam *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:47:32 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #60 > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:22:17 -0400 > From: "Leon B Kirshtein" > Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Inimitable Tailor Spell > > I do not see the use for this as a spirit spell. > The duration of 5 minutes > is a major hangup. It could be used by thief > types for getting into > places where they would not be admitted normally, > but as such it would > not be a faivorate of any tailor types. Due to > this limited usability > I would make it a 2pt non-variable similar with disguise. Its instant. Thus the effects don't disappear after 5 min. Much like Flamearrows are still charcoal at the end of the duration. > Oh, and as a spirit spell I would take any person > names out of the name > of the spell since what is usually associated > with a sorceror who researches > a spell Probably a good idea. Unless the name happens to go with the Hero cult who teaches the spell, which would give the player in question interesting things to worry about. :) Adam *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:13:20 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell System Metalogic > Sorcery, I might give you, has a higher tendency towards > refinement, though that is most heavily due to it being an > object orientated magic system. :). > > On the other hand Spirit Magic by its name implies that the > spells are done by bribing minor spirits to do things. Thus > intelligence is potentially available. The Tailoring spell > could just be for example calling upon help from classical > Brownies like which helped the Poor Shoemaker. If you were arguing in a D&D world, I would agree, but I don't interpret Gloranthan spirits or spirit magic at this level. Also, Brownie, Sprites, and Pixies are living creatures, if they exist at all, and are not generally commanded like spirits. Spirit magic is taught by spell spirits who, with minimal intelligence, carry the ability from the runic source to the summoner. They do not interpret the magic or make it happen, they only provide the procedural framework for the caster's will to affect reality by drawing on the runic source. I admit that sometimes it can be hard to see what rune a spirit spell is drawing on, some seem to utilize two runes. In HW, a shamanic magical ability is gained by capturing or internalizing a spirit with that ability. If the spirit is captured, the spirit casts the spell and isn't likely to get better (I think). If the spirit is internalized, the person gains the ability as a new skill and can improve it. The abilities gained are still usually fundamental principles or elemental abilities. Simple or simplistic applications of runic powers. The escalation of complexity through the magic systems reflects the increasing technological complexity of the cultures they support. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:15:47 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : Lungs of the Herald > Wind Words, which is the nearest thing I can think of is a > listening enhancement. And to be honest is one of the least > used Divine spells available to a major god. I've seen Grow > flowers used more often. True, though we have wished we had Wind Words on occasion. I was thinking of the Issaries sub cult of Herald, which I believe has a speaking spell. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:38:09 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Spell criticism : The Emperor's New Clothes > From P118 of the Reprint Deluxe Edition A sound illusion > cast on a noisy target will mask contradictory noises and > the same is true for contradicting tastes, sights etc. > > If one laid an Illusion that the person's clothes were a mole > on his back, the contradictory visual information from the > clothing would be suppressed. This is a visual illusion of [a naked person with a mole on his back] masking the normal reality of [the person wearing their clothes]. The illusion has to be big enough to replace the entire reality being masked. You are thinking of transformations, not illusions, that is why I referred to the rune of Change... it can really do that. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:23:44 -0400 From: "Leon B Kirshtein" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Succubae I do not think that unpunished rape by itself is enough to create a Succubus. It is rape + unpunished + guilt which summons the demon spirit. The case you are talking about involved a rape and murder coverup by the son of the village headman and the Succubus is there to punish the entire village and not just the shamaness. The village is slowly dying because of this and all offspring between the villagers and the Sucubuss are either ogres or lamias. Sucubuss can be killed by normal means. I am wondering if the Sucubuss is killed but the cause of the problem is not dicovered, if the Sucubuss will return? Leon Kirshtein (No good deed shall go unpunished.) > Here is a meta-physical Gloranthan question: If an unpunished > rape > creates a Succubus, is rape very rare, or Succubae very common? In > 'Shadows > on the Borderland', the young shamaness, Penliss, was being abused > by a > Succubus, but didn't know quite what it was or how to get rid of it. > If > they were common, most people would have heard "don't rape or you will > summon this evil demon". > Stancliff ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:33:35 -0400 From: "Leon B Kirshtein" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: Inimitable Tailor Spell - ---- "Adam Benedict Canning" wrote: > > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:22:17 -0400 > > From: "Leon B Kirshtein" > > Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Inimitable Tailor Spell > > > > I do not see the use for this as a spirit spell. > > The duration of 5 minutes > > is a major hangup. It could be used by thief > > types for getting into > > places where they would not be admitted normally, > > but as such it would > > not be a faivorate of any tailor types. Due to > > this limited usability > > I would make it a 2pt non-variable similar with disguise. > > Its instant. Thus the effects don't disappear after 5 min. > Much like Flamearrows are still charcoal at the end of the > duration. With no duration it becomes too powerful for a spirit spell. You have a permanent change to the amount of a substance. I think I will be making all of my clothes out of gold inlaid silks, and make them lets say S then cast this spell and presto it is now XXXL. Just think in the difference in price. You could also use it on armor (in fact most players will) and make a killing in arbitrage:) Sorry no go IMW. Leon Kirshtein (No good deed shall go unpunished.) ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:50:13 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Succubae > Leon Kirshtein wrote: > I do not think that unpunished rape by itself is enough > to create a Succubus. It is rape + unpunished + guilt > which summons the demon spirit. This implies that there are times when rape is OK since no demon comes to punish it, or that emotionally scarred people who feel no remorse do not attract Succubae, or that only some rapes attract Succubae because chaos spirits can't be everywhere all the time. > Succubae can be killed by normal means. I am wondering, > if the Succubae is killed, but the cause of the problem > is not discovered, if the Succubae will return? Yes, but it may be stunned for a while before returning. Killing the body drives it to the spirit plane, but it is allowed to enter and leave the spirit plane at will, and reforms it's body like a nymph or chonchon. In the Black Rock story the spirit couldn't be destroyed until the bones of the victim were found and the spirit was laid to rest with a proper funeral. It could be argued that the murder and hiding of the body created an angry ghost that summoned the succubae to punish the village, the rape and the guilt were possibly incidental. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:22:44 -0400 From: "Leon B Kirshtein" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Succubae Robert Stancliff wrote: > > I do not think that unpunished rape by itself is enough > > to create a Succubus. It is rape + unpunished + guilt > > which summons the demon spirit. > This implies that there are times when rape is OK since no > demon > comes to punish it, or that emotionally scarred people who feel no > remorse > do not attract Succubae, I do think that if there is no remorse/guilt associated with the rape then a Succubae will not be summoned. After all Thed is the godess of rape and all of her children/followers are supposed to participate in such activity, but yet a rape by a worshiper of Thed does not summon a Succubae. >Killing > the body drives it to the spirit plane, but it is allowed to enter > and leave > the spirit plane at will, and reforms it's body like a nymph or chonchon. I see it the same way. > In the Black Rock story the spirit couldn't be destroyed until > the > bones of the victim were found and the spirit was laid to rest with > a proper > funeral. It could be argued that the murder and hiding of the body > created > an angry ghost that summoned the succubae to punish the village, the > rape > and the guilt were possibly incidental. I would rather argue what it was the rape and the collective guilt which summoned the Succubae and not the angree ghost. IMO the Succubae somehow feeds on these emotions and followed their trail to the village, and was able to take form because of them. The villagers know that something is wrong but refuse to see it. Puting the body and the spirit to rest would mean that the village finally faces their guilt and shame, but it will not by itself destroy the Succubae. Leon Kirshtein ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #61 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. 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