Re: Jeff's analysis of the Whitewall sources

From: jeffrichard68 <richj_at_...>
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:40:09 -0000


Howdy again -

> Tackling [Joerg's analysis of] Jeff's analysis:
>
> The Volsaxi: who exactly? DP:LoT makes participation of the three
other
> Volsaxar tribes fairly limited. Or possibly all Curtali, Bacofi and
> Sylangi loyal to Broyan's cause were withdrawn from their lands by
> Broyan's muster, leaving the Lunar-lovers in power outside of the
city?

The latter makes a lot of sense to me and would explain why those tribes end up under radically pro-Lunar regimes.

> Basically the Tarshite goal. The "seaport Corflu" scheme appears
to have
> been carried by Oslir Valley merchants. The Tarshite cartel goes
for the
> better trade routes.

Yep. From the Lunar side, this campaign is filled with political intrigue, weird religious issues, and a hitherto unknown level of conflict between the Tarshite leadership and the Imperial leadership.

> > Fazzur appears to practice a war of
> > manoeuver and speed; cities and fortresses are to be blockaded
and
> > removed from the main action.
>
> Thereby also eliminating troublesome traditionalist officers from
the
> crucial parts of the campaign.

Yep. It seems we are still on the same page despite many years!

> Jorkandros appears to have planned to use the Bat as a mega-siege
engine.
> This had worked well at Runegate (with comparatively piddly
> fortifications), avoided by the people of Wilmskirk, and thwarted
by the
> appearance of an otherwise unknown dragon at Boldhome in 1602.

And as part of a psychological terror campaign. Just ask Pam Carlson or David Dunham about the Bat!

> > At this point, Broyan is "the last Orlanthi" king. I assume
that he
> > is mythically identifying himself as Vingkot - the sole king of
the
> > Orlanthi.
>
> That smacks of Lokamaydanism, with all the negative consequences.

Lokomoko is one of my favorite characters in Glorantha, but I really disagree. Broyan is behaving in a perfectly traditionalist manner - he truly is the "last Orlanthi king". Which should give him access to a lot of magical support that the king of the Volsaxi wouldn't normally get.

>If
> Broyan really accepted this place in the Lunar scheme, then the
entire
> Iceland trouble is as much his fault as it is Tatius'.

Yes and no. I think that Broyan comes to a realization during the siege of Whitewall. He can't *beat* the Lunars at Whitewall and they will win. But there might still be a way out of this - he must become the Hidden King. "This is the Great Darkness. Prepare for the fight."

By accepting this place in the Lunar scheme, Broyan creates a highrisk  opportunity for the Orlanthi - they have the very best set of "defeat the Great Darkness" myths out there. In a way, his actions are roughly analogous to that of Vargast Redhand - except he doesn't have to die.

> Plus, Vingkot was somewhat successful against Dara Happans (and
trolls),
> but "failed miserably" against Chaos. Broyan's Bat stunt remedied
the
> Chaos defeat, but in the end Dara Happan magics brought about the
> downfall.

Again, not necessarily. I am thinking that ritually it was necessarily for Whitewall to fall and Orlanth to die in order to do the really big mojo magic in the Battle of Iceland, the Boat Planet and the Dragonrise.

> > BTW, what is the source of Broyan's Larnsti association?
>
> Excellent question. Let me add:
>
> Are these Larnsti identical to the people who trained the Andrinic
> sheriffs in Heortland outside of Volsaxar?
>
> If so, they may have turned away from Rikard after their role in
> appointing sheriffs was voided, and joined up with Broyan some
time in
> 1617. I wonder how they turned into a unit of elite fighters,
though, but
> then Larnste's magic is that of turning things into other things.
>
>
> Another possibility is that a significant amount of Larnsti broke
up with
> Andrin and went to Whitewall to support the high King of the
Volsaxar
> tribes, thereby establishing the tradition of the Larnsti guard.

This are good ideas. I just don't know enough about the Larnsti to really speculate. Whose idea were they? Greg's or Peter's? Is Greg on this list? Should he be?

> Apart from that, we come to the Second Son mystery of I Fought We
Won.
> Another thing which may have helped trigger the Fimbulwinter.

Yep. As you can see, I am beginning to run with the idea that Whitewall was a really elaborate Orlanthi ritual to bring on the Great Darkness. The ironic thing is that the Lunars were happily playing along with the ritual.

> > During 1620, the Lunar army reorganizes and reforms in strength
> > around Whitewall.
>
> Starting with the conversion of the Sylangi and Bacofi already in
1619.
> Eliminating the Kultain tribe removed the Sylangi from Broyan's
> supporters, and the Mad King Hroar epic unfolds along the Solthi
rapids.
> The Curtali are handicapped by losing some choice territory to
Baron
> Sanuel, and are a peace tribe anyway.

Yep.

> > I would assume that the once sparse pickets of
> > Jorkandros Blinder (which the Volsaxi and their allies could
easily
> > bypass) get tighter and tighter as Tatius gathers more and more
> > soldiers and magicians to take Whitewall.
>
> The desaster of the drowned concubines will have increased patrol
> activities in the Lunar backyard anyway. Strategic placement of pet
> Heortlings clearly is part of the siege.
>
> Personally, I'd like to see some of these pet Heortlings as a main
source
> of hidden support for the defenders of Whitewall. Willandring
> Clever-Kennings, possibly.

That is a really good idea. Joerg - part of the reason I think the Vingkot association for Broyan is so important is that it appeals to the core identity of the Orlanthi. Even more than Orlanth. The Vingkotlings remained Vingkotlings even after Orlanth and the gods died. They - through Heort - defeated the Great Darkness and brought back the gods.

> On a none-Heortling tangent, it would be an interesting game to be
Tatius'
> errand boy in the Empire recruiting all those specialist siege
units, and
> then arranging them outside of Whitewall without "French shooting
English
> at Sewastopol" inter-unit rivalry. Getting the concubines in place
would
> be part and parcel of this... "I was Tatius campaign-manager at
> Whitewall"...

Yep. This would make a great Lunar adventure as well. Part of the reason I think we should bring Martin Laurie into this at some point.

> And I can't help viewing this as a magicked-up Broyan dangling on
Tatius'
> fishing line having swallowed both bait and hook by assuming the
Vingkot
> role.

Or maybe it was the reverse - I think that Broyan knew exactly what he was doing.

> A real learning experience for Kallyr, who uses the same method on
Tatius
> four years later at the Dragonrising.

Agreed.

> I see a lot of "Morden defends the camp"-like identification stuff
going
> on here. On a very abstract level, this is a game of chess with
augments
> between Tatius and Broyan. There are likely militarily useless
assaults on
> certain positions of the walls just to gain an edge in a later
magical
> attack on that or a related position, etc, with the soldiers
sacrificed
> there powering later rituals. The Carmanian Bull Shahs used this
type of
> magic against the Dara Happan Empire in the late Imperial and
early Modern
> Age (the carmanian march, IIRC, in Fortunate Succession).

This is exactly my view. A magical chess-battle.

> John, if you want some "military advice", how about crossposting
some
> questions to the Glorwar and Glorantha-Board (Dragon Pass, Nomad
Gods)
> lists? I'm sure those wargamers out there have additional ideas and
> details!

I wouldn't bring the wargamers in yet.

> Back to the Otherworld part of the struggle: I think it would be
fun if
> someplace odd in some otherworld (or possibly in a cabinet in the
City of
> Wonders) a reflection of this conflict grows, where questers can
influence
> the situation not by direct interaction, but by performing semi-
related
> quests. This is probably more game-mechanic than storytelling, but
might
> have some potential. I for one wouldn't mind if some boardgame or
> checklist analogue of KoDP would be the outcome. In the "Broken
Council"
> freeform the use of such a parallel mechanism was tried (and
reputedly
> failed to some extent, but that was most likely due to the time
> requirements on freeform referees).
>
> There are the three battles (win/draw/lose) Heortling questers can
visit.
> Maybe these can serve as some kind of mythic potentiometer?

Good idea.

> I know of no "Orlanth held out the siege" myths other than Starkval
> defending Aedin's Wall. There are a number of Greater Darkness
survival
> sagas which did just this, though - some of the stronger ones like
Karse
> (Pelaskites) or Nochet (Esrolvuli) outside of direct Heortling
experience.
> One possibility could be to study these cases, or Ezkankekko
holding out
> against Palangio's siege during the Gbaji Wars.

Yep. There is also the Battle of the Verge - which might well be the direct inspiration for Broyan. I am certain there are numerous Vingkot myths as well.

> RuneQuest Adventures #4 makes some suggestions.
>
> All those 7 years ago when Jeff and I discussed this at length, I
produced
> a heavily annotated copy of John Castellucci's stuff. Anybody
interested?

OK, I probably am going to get in trouble for suggesting this, but I recommend against using the RQA 4 material initially. First off, I think too much of it has been "Gregged". Second, I think we are probably better off coming up with an overview that relies of KoS, OiD and other published works - and then retrofit what we can of RQA 4. Besides, I think that we really need to rethink the Kitori.

> Actually, I am not sure we know that. Without having the date of
that
> interview at hand, I have often read it as a post-1625 event
(after Broyan
> was "killed" by the Kitori ambush).
>
> I also doubt that Broyan had Larnsti magic himself, so we can
assume that
> the Larnsti were able to take along non-Larnsti if this was their
way out.

You don't think that is the source of Heroic Escape 12M2?

Jeff

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