Re: Re: Larnsti and other topics

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_...>
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 12:57:46 +1300


At 04:58 PM 3/5/04 +0000, you wrote:

>Me> AFAIK the Larnsti were part of the pre-pharaohic kingdom but
> > sidelined when Andrin became King for the second time. How
> > Broyan ever makes use or contact with them is unknown
> > although I dare suspect that he was trying for some mobility
> > connection.
>
>Do they trace back to Hendreik the Free (or whatever he called
>himself)?

I think the Larnsti have always been around but Hendreik was the first to organize them as protectors of Heortland.

> > The Larnsti motivations are pretty much up in the air. I do not
> > believe they are aiming for the return of the pre-pharaohic
> > kingdom has that has been something that has already happened
> > while they exist for change.

>If they are Hendreik's heroband, maybe they are simply the defenders
>of Hendreiki liberties.

In the original writeup, they were the defenders of Heortland liberties. But they were ousted from that role by King Andrin and replaced by the Sheriffs.

> > After all Fazzur's in decadent Karse while other Lunars
> > have arrived by sea (which suggests capture of the other
> > ports of Heortland).

>Which Lunars?

The ones that invaded Heortland through Corflu.

>I agree with you that Fazzur is not interested in
>Whitewall at all (other than as a possible nuisance to supply
>lines). I think that the Dara Happans (Jorkandros the Blinder,
>Tatius the Bright) had a different view of it. I think they linked
>this into their Reaching Moon Temple project (which had been ok'd by
>the Emperor back in 1580).

But if the Death of Orlanth was crucial to the success of the Reaching Moon Project then how come the latter goes ahead despite the Battle of Iceland? Methinks there's two different magical rituals at work.

I strongly doubt that the Reaching Moon Temple was okayed as far back as 1580. The Mask then was content to do nothing more than just kick heads in at Grizzly Peak and did nothing to advance into Sartar even when it was in turmoil at the time (although some Lunars did try and seize some land there).

At the very earliest, the Reaching Moon Temple was planned during the reign of Ignifer (1598) and executed by the governor general (it isn't a Dara Happan plot as the Tarshites invested major magical resources in their own temple).

>I think the Death of Orlanth at
>Whitewall is not something that happened haphazardly

If so, then why do the Lunar sources (Fortunate Succession etc) speak of a lesser event "a great plan... which would encompass this unruly spirit and, while still allowing it to live, would incorporate it within reasonable limits" [FS p68]. There's also the Glorantha: Intro's "Recently the Red Emperor has decided that to mark the completion of the current cycle, he will present the Goddess with Orlanth chained to Yelm's Chariot" p117. The CHDP purporting to quote a lunar source simply says "Orlanth had fallen" and that he "was revealed to be nothing in the light of the Red Moon" (page 149).

As statements of intent (the Fortunate Succession is a Dara Happan source), the original plan of the Lunars is far more moderate than what actually happens. If the Emperor is saying I want to chain Orlanth at the start of the ritual and the ritual ends up killing Orlanth, then it is clear there has been a hardening of hearts somewhere along the way rather than a decision to kill Orlanth from the very beginning.

Likewise the question is why Whitewall? What is so special about Whitewall that it becomes Orlanth's grave? Before the Lunars ever entered Sartar, it was not that special and even when Heortland is invaded, there are plenty of other Orlanthi cities that might have had better claim to be the last Orlanthi. It is only after the rest of Heortland has been conquered that the Lunar plan to enslave Orlanth becomes centred at Whitewall.

Even the CHDP only mentions that part of the army went to Whitewall while the rest moved against other targets such as Smithstone and Karse. At that time, Whitewall is designed to become batfood which doesn't sound like the appropriate cumulation of a ritual to enslave Orlanth nor does the Bat apparently play such a part.

>- it is
>something that has been planned for a very long time, not simply
>vengeance for killing the Crimson Bat (which happens not
>infrequently - it happened at Boldhome).

And what happened at Boldhome? Insult avenged.

>What intrigues me is what myth are the Lunars trying to reenact?
>When was Orlanth (or Rebellus Terminus) killed in DH myths?

When Shargash slew the world (the rebels apologize to Yelm in Hell). But that wasn't the original aim and intent of the ritual which is about chaining or enslaving Orlanth. Shargash meeting Umatum and sending him crashing to earth.

>Also interesting is that the really creative Lunar heroquesters
>(e.g., Jar-Eel) are not involved in this. Instead, this is the
>Emperor-approved obsession of an old-school Raibanthi aristocratic
>clan (presumably the Assidays can trace themselves back to a DH
>Emperor).

I don't think the stigmatization of the Assidays as old school as accurate. They are just as creative and innovative as Jar Eel and are just as likely to trace their descent from a Lunar Emperor than a Dara Happan one.

> > The aims of the siege will vary depending on the political
> > currents. At some stage, the nuclear option (Kill Orlanth!)
> > will be raised, quickly dismissed, raised again, debated at
> > length, dismissed again. With every setback the Lunars
> > receive at Whitewall, attitudes will harden until such a point
> > that even the doves want Orlanth dead.

>I disagree with this. The decision to kill Orlanth is not made as a
>result of the siege

Then when was it made? It wasn't made at the beginning as the sources indicate.

>- frankly I don't think that the siege itself is
>that big of a deal in the Lunar Heartlands.

Why did the Emperor declare a Extra Full Moon Year in celebration? So why is the Emperor upset when he hears the news about Broyan's escape?

>Tatius' assault on
>Whitewall is the culmination of decades of planning.

I strongly doubt this. Tatius is only sent to Whitewall _after_ that city repels the Bat. That's not evidence of decades in planning. Moreover the best plans are ones that adapt themselves to circumstances, not ones that mark certain locations out decades in advance and stack everything upon them.

>Now it is possible - and even likely - that Jorkandros is not trying
>to fulfill the Kill Orlanth project when he makes his assault on
>Whitewall in 1619. Using the Crimson Bat to level WW could just be
>standard operating procedure. However, defeating the Crimson Bat -
>or maybe certain identifications made by Broyan and the defenders -
>triggered the criteria for using the Kill Orlanth project.

I wouldn't describe it as a Kill Orlanth project but an Enslave Orlanth project. And Whitewall's identification was enabled by its continued defiance long after the rest of Heortland had fallen.

> Tatius
>(Dean of the Lunar College of Magic) gets appointed commander of the
>WW siege and is not subject to Fazzur, his nominal commander.

Whatever the circumstances of his appointment, I don't think Tatius took command as part of the plot to enslave Orlanth. Rather he took command to earn kudos and finds himself at the centre of the Enslave Orlanth plot a few seasons into the siege after the rest of Whitewall has fallen. Much of the rest of the siege is fighting of attempts by Fazzur and others to usurp command. At the same time, his frustrations towards the city's continued defiance is worsening (a RW parallel is Alexander meting out a much worse fate to Tyre than he actually did to the Persian capital). His heart hardens and he begins to warp the ritual into killing Orlanth.

>Thus in victory, Broyan triggered a much bigger problem - the Kill
>Orlanth project. During 1620 and 1621, Broyan begins to realize
>what the Lunars are trying to do. He can't beat the Lunars, he
>can't negotiate with them - so he raises the stakes and joins their
>ritual with one of his own...

I don't think that Broyan is necessarily aware of what exactly the Lunars are trying to do considering that most armies have great difficulty in reading the intentions of what the other side is actually planning (gloranthan example: Nights of Horrors). He is aware of major magic in the wind and performs a ritual of his own in response. But the realization that the Lunars intend to kill Orlanth should come quite late in the siege and become a real morale blow for the defenders.

--Peter Metcalfe

Powered by hypermail