Re: PEOPLE: Broyan and the Larnsti

From: jorganos <joe_at_...>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:18:04 -0000


Peter:
>>> Broyan isn't aiming for restoration of the Hendrieki tribe, he's >>> aiming for rule over the entire Holy Country according to Greg.

Jeff:

>>I don't think that Broyan is "aiming for rule over the entire Holy
>>Country" - are you basing this on the reference to Broyan being King of
>>Kethaela in the Annotated Argrath Saga?

Peter:
> No, I'm basing it on a statement from Greg in the Heroquest list:

:Joerg:
:>>While I don't regard Broyan as a fervent supporter of the
:>>Pharaoh, his conduct in 1622-24 suggests that he does support
:>>the concept of a unified [Kethaela]

:Greg:
:> Well, I see him as wanting a unified Kethaela -- under his command!

Which is the Vingkotling Summer Tribes angle Jeff and I have been discussing.

:Joerg 
:>> To make him an active foe of the Pharaoh would take some
:>>explaining.

:Greg:
:> I myself see him as anti-Pharaoh. He sells out the entire land 
:> when he opens the doors of the City of Wonders in :> return for Harrek's help.

At the very least, Broyan paid a Danegeld for services rendered rather than just propitiatory.

:> His activities in Esrola are, I think, overemphasized when he is called King
:> and so on. He had a desperate mercenary force in the time he was in :> Esrola. He became successful later.

I wonder how much of a "later" there was for Broyan? After Pennel Ford, Broyan, an Argrath and some Caladran mercenaries won the battle of Milran, breaking the thinly-spread Lunar hold over lowland Heortland. Then, in 1625, he and his warband are ambushed a day's march north of Whitewall by the Kitori, and Broyan gets snuffed.

Unless he manages another escape to Ice Retreat, lacking the strength to come back before another prophecy is fulfilled. Broyan as a Barbarossa/Holger Danske king under (well, on top of) the mountain feels right to me.

However, we find him as our main character already in 1619, and that's what we ought to discuss here.

:> His later importance makes his
:> presence in Esrola even more serious in retrospect than it might have
:> been at the battle.

He did bring in the Wolf Pirates. Nothing is said about his exploits in the battle. He and his host survive in sufficient strength to strike at Milran.

:> http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/heroquest-rpg/2001.11/8612.html  

>>Frankly, I don't think that
>>Broyan has any interest in the Holy Country per se - definitely
>>Heortland and maybe Esrolia, probably not the Shadow Plateau.
>>Definitely not Caladraland, the Islands or God Forgot.

> Why not? To use a non-loaded example that's like suggesting that
> the English Kings don't have any interest in Ireland, Scotland or
> Wales because the people there are not English. Kethaela was
> originally an Orlanthi land while the Trolls, the Caladrans and the
> God Forgotten are latecomers.

True. Vingkot ruled over Vingkotlings and others. His power came from ruling over the Vingkotlings, though.

>>However,
>>following the Battle of Iceland, I think that Broyan is generally
>>recognized as High King of the Hendriki (and of Heortland).

> By whom?

The Hendriki people of Heortland. A king in exile, though.

> He is a Vingkotling King, a title that is geographically
> unbounded. He wouldn't have anything to do with Heort.

I agree, and nothing Jeff said indicated that, either.

Not that King of the Heortlings has any geographical definition...

>>As a
>>result, he meets the qualifications for ruler of a Sixth and can enter
>>the City of Wonders.

> I doubt that Broyan's influence extended beyond the Volsaxar
> which isn't enough to confer hexarch status.

Seconded (although, influenced by Philippe Sigaud's work on http://kethaela.free.fr has different connotations for me). IMO it takes his victory at Milran to make him ruler of Heortland wrt opening the City of Wonders. Given the fact that Harrek drank off his gold in Nochet for quite a bit of time, Broyan can keep his word.

> His victories at Iceland mean damn little to the
> unreconciled Andrinic Heortlanders and their Malkioni counterparts.

I suppose you mean the role he played there. The outcome of that battle matters a lot!

> Moreover being one of the six rulers implies recognition of the
Pharoah's
> status which is anathema to Broyan.

Ever the dogmatic? Besides, Broyan likes to think of himself as two of the rulers, and the Densesros CHDP propaganda seems to have supported that view.

>>However, I think that Broyan is aiming to restore the Hendreiki - in >>order to resist the Lunars.

> The Hendreiki are still alive and don't need restoration.

The willing Andrinic Hendreiki don't feel they need restoration. The unwilling traditionalist Hendriki might as well take the opportunity. Those tending to Aeolianism might, too...

Peter experiences alienation of his Heortland ideas:

>>> The Larnsti isn't a heroband but fully fledged worship of Larnste.

>>Let's talk about the Larnsti for a moment.  They exist in precisely
>>three published sources: (1) G:IHW, (2) OiD; and (3) DP:LoT.  Of these
>>three, OiD is the most important.

> No. OiD is simply a character bio which makes a simple statement
> about Broyan leading some Larnsti

Which is our working premise right now. Jeff's main concern is the heroband following Broyan, not the brotherhood itself.

> and the precise implications of
> which are contradicted by the other sources. When I was writing
> up the Larnsti, I fully intended them to have magic along the lines
> of what Sartar had in KoS and not the limpid Escape Power.

What got published and was integrated in later products changed, as did the premises Peter wrote them from. Not a new phenomenon writing for Heortland...

The escape ability is one form of Motion magic. Since followers just get two abilities, we have one fighting ability and one magical ability tied to the Mobility/Change rune. Nothing unreconcilable, so far.

>>This passage contains quite a bit of information for us.

>>(1) The Larnsti are a magical brotherhood founded by Hendreik so that
>>his people would never be conquered.  This is strongly paralleled with
>>Broyan the Last Free King.  They are a heroband.

> Wrong. Heroband in Heroquest has a specific meaning namely
> a group protected by a guardian (Heroquest p227). The patron
> of the Larnsti is the former cosmic god of motion, now crippled.
> He is not a guardian in the terms of Heroquest rules but a god.
> As such, the Larnsti are a cult.

Ok. So we have a heroband of 25 Larnsti following Broyan. By this fact alone, they differ somewhat from the other Larnsti. They do have a guardian - Jeff says Hendreik's Spirit of Freedom. Not the transcendent god of Mobility and Change himself, we all agree.

The Guardian still has a connection to Larnste. The limited uniform ability of the Larnsti followers may well be defined by the Guardian's specialisation.

>>(2) The Larnsti are not restricted in the mysteries of the god they
>>chose to study - they worship freedom and liberty.  They are likely
>>initiates of Orlanth as well - in fact I see now reason why Free
>>Hendreik is not a subcult of Orlanth who then provides access to Larnst.

> They are not initiates of Orlanth but initiates of Larnste.

I contend that the only Celestial Court deity with initiates is Uleria, and that only because she was greatly diminished (by her own doing, as she offered herself to the Boggles).

> The nearest
> an Orlanthi can come to understanding Larnsti magics is through
> the worship of Mastakos.

The nearest thing an Orlanthi can come to understanding Larnsti magics through Orlanth, you mean?

I sort of agree, since I see Larnsti as lesser/failed mystics. Larnste magics can't be "understood". They are pretty close to drawing on the transcendent directly.

In Peter's original conception
> The Larnsti are outside the cult of Orlanth
> although they are communal worshippers of the Orlanthi Pantheon.

This has a huge logical defect.

Hendreik was an Orlanthi. King Andrin was an Orlanthi. Sartar was a hero for Issaries, but receives worship as Orlanthi hero.

If the Larnsti have the power of change, than one application of this must be to change their membership in the Orlanth cult to allow for Larnsti membership.

>>(3) King Andrin replaced the true Larnsti with Larnsti-lite. The >>sheriffs have weakened the Spirit of Hendreik.

> No, they haven't.

They have displaced the communal worship of the Spirit of Hendreik from the Andrinic clan rites by their pharaonic version, I suppose?

> That is a subjective interpretation and one not
> shared by everybody (including most of the people of Heortland).

I can live with 55% happy (or "don't care") Andrinic Hendreiki, the rest divided between unhappy Andrinic Hendreiki, Aeolians and outright traditional Orlanthi.

> Moreover look at what the Larnsti did when Andrin created the
> Sherrifs - they didn't revolt but stayed silent indicating that they
> were unable to say whether the change was good or bad.

The Larnsti didn't openly revolt against God Learners or EWF either, if I understood Peter correctly. Why should they have against Andrin?

> Many people (including some Larnsti) now say that the change was bad
> but in truth, the Larnsti still don't have a clue from their God.

Larnste is too distant to give statements on social developments. (More so than e.g. Dayzatar.)

>>(4) The Larnsti - and Broyan - cannot leave Heortland (which includes
>>the lands of the Volsaxar Confederation of the Bacofi, Curtali, Sylangi,
>>and Volsaxi - and once upon a time the Kultain).

> Broyan can leave Heortland. He was in Esrolia.

We discussed that. He was in Esrolia after the Siege of Whitewall. Jeff used Broyan's Change into a Hidden King of the Vingkotlings as an explanation.

>>The true Larnsti - like the Spirit of Hendreik - are almost gone.

> No, they are not. They are still around in Gollanstead and other
places.
> If they were almost gone, then I wouldn't have wasted so much space
> in describing them. I note that Sartar left Heortland almost two hundred
> years after the first Andrini were created.

150 years after the first Andrini were created, equalling 150 years ago.

>>Proceeding on to source number two, OiD. From that we know that:

>>"Broyan is fated to be the Last High King of Heortland.  He will die in
>>1625, so we recommend that the narrator reserve his personal hero band
>>(the 25 members of the Larnsti) as an exemplar rather than as an option
>>for player characters to join.  Even if the narrator does allow player
>>heroes to join, attaining this high honor is very difficult, and any
>>player hero will have to work up to joining the household of the High
>>King."

>>Broyan is "Leader of the Larnsti 5M2"

> A relationship that only takes 10% of his time as opposed to an initiate
> relationship to Vingkot (30%) and gives him a 25 warriors with escape
> skills. For a magical brotherhood that's extraordinarily weak.

That's the usual "additional subcult" price, isn't it?

>>We also know that a "Typical Larnst Warrior" has as keywords - "Warrior >>7M2", "Escape 19 M2" and uses spear and javelins.

> Nope. That's the typical Larnsti warrior that follows Broyan.

Agreed.

>> From OiD, I think it is safe to extrapolate that the Larnsti are
>>Broyan's personal heroband and that there are "25 members of the
>>Larnsti" left.

> I disagree strongly. That interpretation flies in the face of
everything
> else that has been written about the Larnsti.

In subsequent discussion, we found the formula "there are 25 Larnsti in the warband/heroband, and there is a reservoir of Larnsti to replace these warriors." That also includes the possibility of other Larnsti not able or willing to replace these warriors.

>>Most Larnsti have no Sartar-like changing magics, -

> Again I disagree. That is solely based on the OiD Broyan writeup
> and ignores what they were described as having in other sources.

I agree with Jeff that few if any Larnsti could turn assassins into termites or a magical drumbeat into a sweet song carried by a light breeze. No living Larnsti could turn a man and four dogs into a Telmori king.

I agree with Peter that the individual Larnsti have some powers of change. IMO mostly subtle.

>>instead they are each the near-equivalent of a clan champion and have an >>Escape ability (which is presumably a magical affinity).

> It's not described as an affinity in Broyan's own stats but a magical
> skill. It's probably an ability conferred by the Guardian of Broyan's
> own heroband but it is not

...personal magic of the individual Larnsti???

>>  This makes me
>>believe that the Spirit of Hendreik is the main source of cool Larnsti
>>magic.  The Spirit of Hendreik is the Guardian of the Larnsti.

> So why does Sartar who is explicitly mentioned as a Larnsti in
> Storm Tribe as well as the Glorantha: Intro have much more powers
> than the escape powers supposedly available to the Larnsti in
> OiD?

Because Sartar overcame the limitations of the ordinary Larnsti, as all the sources agree. He _mastered_ the Change Rune.

>>> Look at Sartar's powers for an example of what Larnsti magic
>>> is like (break a tree into water, create flying fish, turn assassins
>>> into termites, jinx shaman's drumbeat of power on KoS p133 alone).

>>No - look at Sartar's power for an example of what Larnste magic is >>like.

> Which is what I said, no? Instead you seem to want to cripple them
> with a bog-standard escape power.

Actually, Jeff accuses the Sheriffs of crippling the Larnstis' power.

>> Sartar was not the run of the mill Larnsti.

> So? I never implied that he was. I specifically pointed to Sartar
> as an example of what the Larnsti were like. But instead, the cult
> is dumbed down to a heroband on the basis of a statement in a
> character sheet in OiD.

Sartar surpassed all Larnsti in memory. The ordinary Larnsti relates to Sartar as
the run-of-the-mill Orlanthi farmer to Elmalandti Bluespruce or Garundyer.

>>> Looking at Broyan's stats, his magic is Vingkot and nothing >>> else.

>>He is leader of the Larnsti. Period.

> Wrong. Period.

Let's try and find solutions, not differences, folks. Disagreement is part of the shaping process, not the desired outcome.

>>> Broyan may be a worshipper of Hendreik Freeman as part
>>> of a political movement among the Larnsti but I doubt that all
>>> Larnsti share this belief.

>>On the contrary, I think that Hendreik Freeman is the Guardian of the >>Larnsti.

> Hendreik Freeman is a Hero and not a Guardian.

Sartar is (well, was) a Hero and the Guardian of Sartar. Probably the wyter of the royal family, too.

Thanks to Peter's invention of the Larnsti, Hendreik as the founder of the magical brotherhood able to draw on the magic of a Celestial Court deity unavailable elsewhere is a hero in a higher league than say Hachrat Blowhard or Gorangi Vak.

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