RE: Re: PEOPLE: Broyan and the Larnsti

From: Jeff Richard <richj_at_...>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:59:00 -0800


Peter, Joerg:  

I am pretty much in full agreement with Joerg's interpretation of my comments. I think we can come to some sort of creative and interesting solution that we can all live with. Here's my short summary of my take on the Larnsti:  

The Larnsti are a magical brotherhood founded by Hendreik the Free, the unconquered rebel who resisted the Gbaji Empire, helped Harmast, supported Arkat and made Owenreth High King of the Heortlings. The Heortlings still sacrifice to Hendreik the Free on Gods Day of Movement Week in Sea Season. Hendreik drew upon the magic of Larnste - god of Change - to resist the Gbaji Empire and taught his followers some of Larnste's magic. The Larnsti worship Larnsti through Hendreik (although there have been a few Larnsti who managed to independently contact Larnste - Sartar comes to mind). Through the Spirit of Hendreik, the Larnsti are able to draw on the magic of a Celestial Court deity to protect the Hendriki.  

The Kings of the Hendriki were selected from the membership of the Larnsti brotherhood. However, when King Andrin returned from the dead, he appointed sheriffs to fulfill most of the functions of the Larnsti. Over the centuries, the Larnsti dwindled and the Spirit of Hendreik weakened. When the Heortlendings were easily defeated (and nearly conquered) by a small Lunar diversionary force commanded by Fazzur Wideread in 1605, the remaining Larnsti and those who still followed the old ways were shocked to realize how weak the Spirit of Hendreik had become.  

On to the more specific comments:

> :Joerg:
> :>>While I don't regard Broyan as a fervent supporter of the
> :>>Pharaoh, his conduct in 1622-24 suggests that he does
support

> :>>the concept of a unified [Kethaela]
> :Greg:
> :> Well, I see him as wanting a unified Kethaela -- under his
command!

> Which is the Vingkotling Summer Tribes angle Jeff and I have
been

> discussing.
         

        Yep. Not only that, but we are talking about the Broyan of 1619-1621. Greg might be right in 1624.          

> :Greg:
> :> I myself see him as anti-Pharaoh. He sells out the entire
land

> :> when he opens the doors of the City of Wonders in
> :> return for Harrek's help.
> At the very least, Broyan paid a Danegeld for services
rendered rather

> than just propitiatory.
         

        I agree that Broyan is anti-Andrini and anti-Pharaoh.         

> I wonder how much of a "later" there was for Broyan? After
Pennel

> Ford, Broyan, an Argrath and some Caladran mercenaries won
the battle

> of Milran, breaking the thinly-spread Lunar hold over lowland
> Heortland. Then, in 1625, he and his warband are ambushed a
day's

> march north of Whitewall by the Kitori, and Broyan gets
snuffed.          

        Yep. Broyan's history is pretty short. Maybe he would have gone on to establish himself as the ruler of a united Kethaela, maybe the ruler of the Summer Tribes, maybe High King of the Orlanthi. But he snuffs it in 1625, so we'll never know.          

> Unless he manages another escape to Ice Retreat, lacking the
strength

> to come back before another prophecy is fulfilled. Broyan as
a

> Barbarossa/Holger Danske king under (well, on top of) the
mountain

> feels right to me.
         

        I like that. I really like that. Argrath later goes to Broyan's Hall after the Lunar counteroffensive following Dwernapple, and Broyan and his Army of Dead Heroes fight for Argrath at the Battle of Dantolfol.         

> However, we find him as our main character already in 1619,
and that's

> what we ought to discuss here.
         

        Exactly. We trying to get to the Broyan of OiD.         

	>>Frankly, I don't think that
	>>Broyan has any interest in the Holy Country per se -
definitely
	>>Heortland and maybe Esrolia, probably not the Shadow Plateau.
	>>Definitely not Caladraland, the Islands or God Forgot.
	> Why not?  To use a non-loaded example that's like suggesting
that
	> the English Kings don't have any interest in Ireland, Scotland
or
	> Wales because the people there are not English.  Kethaela was
	> originally an Orlanthi land while the Trolls, the Caladrans
and the
	> God Forgotten are latecomers.
	 
	That's why I said Broyan has no interest in Kethaela per se.  I
can imagine that in 1624, Broyan might be trying to reestablish the Kingdom of the Vingkotlings. But not in 1619-1621. He's trying to survive as the Hidden King.          
	>>However,
	>>following the Battle of Iceland, I think that Broyan is
generally
	>>recognized as High King of the Hendriki (and of Heortland).
	> By whom?

> The Hendriki people of Heortland. A king in exile, though.
Yep. I think that he takes on the regalia and symbols of King
of the Hendreiki in 1617. There is no Hendreiki king once Rikard becomes King of Malkonwal.          

> > He is a Vingkotling King, a title that is geographically
> > unbounded. He wouldn't have anything to do with Heort.
> I agree, and nothing Jeff said indicated that, either.
         

        Although nothing I said indicated that, I think I might disagree. After all, Heort is a Vingkotling who founds the Heortlings. I think that Broyan might have a lot to do with Heort the Vingkotling.         

> Not that King of the Heortlings has any geographical
definition...          

        Well, High King of the Heortlings sort of does. It means the High King of the old Heortling tribes.         

> Seconded (although, influenced by Philippe Sigaud's work on
> http://kethaela.free.fr has different connotations for me).
IMO it

> takes his victory at Milran to make him ruler of Heortland
wrt opening

> the City of Wonders. Given the fact that Harrek drank off his
gold in

> Nochet for quite a bit of time, Broyan can keep his word.
         

        I agree.          

> > His victories at Iceland mean damn little to the
> > unreconciled Andrinic Heortlanders and their Malkioni
counterparts.

> I suppose you mean the role he played there. The outcome of
that

> battle matters a lot!
         

        The unreconciled Andrinic Heortlanders and their Malkioni counterparts aren't Hendreiki anymore. At least in the sense of being protected by (and worshipping) Hendreik the Free.         

> > Moreover being one of the six rulers implies recognition of
the Pharoah's

> > status which is anathema to Broyan.
> Ever the dogmatic? Besides, Broyan likes to think of himself
as two of

> the rulers, and the Densesros CHDP propaganda seems to have
supported

> that view.
         

        Yeah - if Broyan meets the criteria for being recognized by the Guardians of the City of Wonders as ruler of Heortland (whatever that means) and ruler of Esrolia (whatever that means), he should be able to grant entry to the City of Wonders. He turned the Pharoah's magic on its head.         

> > The Hendreiki are still alive and don't need restoration.
> The willing Andrinic Hendreiki don't feel they need
restoration. The

> unwilling traditionalist Hendriki might as well take the
opportunity.

> Those tending to Aeolianism might, too...
        

         Exactly. And in Broyan's traditionalist view (shared by a lot of Heortlending Orlanthi IMO), the Andrini cease to be the Hendriki after 1617.         

> > No. OiD is simply a character bio which makes a simple
statement

> > about Broyan leading some Larnsti
> Which is our working premise right now. Jeff's main concern
is the

> heroband following Broyan, not the brotherhood itself.
         

        Yep. Although in my opinion OiD should be given the most weight in interpretation. We are creating the backstory to OiD.          

> > and the precise implications of
> > which are contradicted by the other sources. When I was
writing

> > up the Larnsti, I fully intended them to have magic along
the lines

> > of what Sartar had in KoS and not the limpid Escape Power.
> What got published and was integrated in later products
changed, as

> did the premises Peter wrote them from. Not a new phenomenon
writing

> for Heortland...
         

        Boy isn't this the truth!          

> The escape ability is one form of Motion magic. Since
followers just

> get two abilities, we have one fighting ability and one
magical

> ability tied to the Mobility/Change rune. Nothing
unreconcilable, so far.          

        Full agreement.         

	> Wrong.  Heroband in Heroquest has a specific meaning namely
	> a group protected by a guardian (Heroquest p227).  The patron
	> of the Larnsti is the former cosmic god of motion, now
crippled.
	> He is not a guardian in the terms of Heroquest rules but a
god.
	> As such, the Larnsti are a cult.

> Ok. So we have a heroband of 25 Larnsti following Broyan. By
this fact
> alone, they differ somewhat from the other Larnsti. They do
have a
> guardian - Jeff says Hendreik's Spirit of Freedom. Not the
> transcendent god of Mobility and Change himself, we all
agree.          

        Agreed.          

> The Guardian still has a connection to Larnste. The limited
uniform

> ability of the Larnsti followers may well be defined by the
Guardian's

> specialisation.
        

         Full agreement.         

	> > They are not initiates of Orlanth but initiates of Larnste.
	> I contend that the only Celestial Court deity with initiates
is
	> Uleria, and that only because she was greatly diminished (by
her own
	> doing, as she offered herself to the Boggles).
	 
	I agree with Joerg and I think that this is an important point.
The Larnsti are not Larnste initiates. They have access to some Larnste magic through Hendreik the Free.         
	>> In Peter's original conception
	> > The Larnsti are outside the cult of Orlanth
	> > although they are communal worshippers of the Orlanthi
Pantheon.
	> This has a huge logical defect.
	> Hendreik was an Orlanthi. King Andrin was an Orlanthi. Sartar
was a
	> hero for Issaries, but receives worship as Orlanthi hero.
	
	Yep.  Hendreik is an Orlanthi hero.  He receives worship as an
Orlanthi hero. He founded the Larnsti and is their Guardian Spirit. The Larnsti might worship Larnste-through Hendreik directly, but practically speaking this is an Orlanth subcult.          

> They have displaced the communal worship of the Spirit of
Hendreik

> from the Andrinic clan rites by their pharaonic version, I
suppose?          

        Seems to be what the sources suggest - and more importantly, if the Andrini hadn't weakened the Larnsti I don't think that the Heortlenders would have fallen so easily to the Lunars (in 1605 - which is when I think Broyan and many of the Larnsti first realize that the Spirit of Hendreik is almost gone).         

> > That is a subjective interpretation and one not
> > shared by everybody (including most of the people of
Heortland).

> I can live with 55% happy (or "don't care") Andrinic
Hendreiki, the

> rest divided between unhappy Andrinic Hendreiki, Aeolians and
outright

> traditional Orlanthi.
         

        Sure. Broyan and his Larnsti view themselves as the "Hendriki" - and they can magically prove it. Others disagree.         

> > Moreover look at what the Larnsti did when Andrin created
the

> > Sherrifs - they didn't revolt but stayed silent indicating
that they

> > were unable to say whether the change was good or bad.
> The Larnsti didn't openly revolt against God Learners or EWF
either,

> if I understood Peter correctly. Why should they have against
Andrin?          

        The Larnsti didn't rebel because it was one of them (Andrin) that replaced them. And the ramifications of the sheriffs took a long time to realize.         

> > Many people (including some Larnsti) now say that the
change was bad

> > but in truth, the Larnsti still don't have a clue from
their God.

> Larnste is too distant to give statements on social
developments.

> (More so than e.g. Dayzatar.)
         

        Yep. Larnsti doesn't really care - he's a cosmic god of Change. However the Spirit of Hendreik (who does care) was slowly weakened.         

> > Broyan can leave Heortland. He was in Esrolia.
> We discussed that. He was in Esrolia after the Siege of
Whitewall.

> Jeff used Broyan's Change into a Hidden King of the
Vingkotlings as an

> explanation.
         

        Yep. Remember we are talking 1619-1621.         

        >>The true Larnsti - like the Spirit of Hendreik - are almost gone.

        > No, they are not. They are still around in Gollanstead and other

	places.
	> If they were almost gone, then I wouldn't have wasted so much
space
	> in describing them.  
	  
	That's not really much of an argument.:)  And DP:LoT does not
explicitly say any of that.          
	 >> I note that Sartar left Heortland almost two hundred

> > years after the first Andrini were created.
> 150 years after the first Andrini were created, equalling 150
years ago. Yep. And Sartar might have left Heortland in part because he
recognized that the Spirit of Hendreik was weakening.         
	>>Broyan is "Leader of the Larnsti 5M2"
	> A relationship that only takes 10% of his time as opposed to
an initiate
	> relationship to Vingkot (30%) and gives him a 25 warriors with
escape
	> skills.  For a magical brotherhood that's extraordinarily
weak.

> That's the usual "additional subcult" price, isn't it?
Yep. And there is only 25 of them. Besides I disagree that is
extraordinarily weak - it is the standard for the leader of a heroband. Dernu and Gernu have the same time commitment to the Eaglebrown hero band (with "Leader of the Eaglebrown hero band 16M"). Or Vatheria Shortsword with the Scorching Swords ("Leader of the Scorching Swords 5M"), or Orngering Thundercape with the Silent Wind ("Leader of the Silent Wind hero band 15M"), or Orstalor the Spearlord ("Leader of Miki's Mudhens heroband 15M2"). Only Orstalor is more dedicated to his heroband than Broyan.         

> > Which is what I said, no? Instead you seem to want to
cripple them

> > with a bog-standard escape power.
> Actually, Jeff accuses the Sheriffs of crippling the
Larnstis' power.          

        Yep. I think that the Larnsti nearly died out in the 16th century and became a shadow of their former selves - as a result of the sheriffs, they just aren't needed. Broyan seeks to restore the Larnsti because he needs the Spirit of Hendreik to resist the Lunars.         

> > So? I never implied that he was. I specifically pointed
to Sartar

> > as an example of what the Larnsti were like. But instead,
the cult

> > is dumbed down to a heroband on the basis of a statement in
a

> > character sheet in OiD.
> Sartar surpassed all Larnsti in memory. The ordinary Larnsti
relates

> to Sartar as
> the run-of-the-mill Orlanthi farmer to Elmalandti Bluespruce
or Garundyer.          

        I agree with Joerg. The ordinary Larnsti has nothing approaching Sartar's power.          

> Thanks to Peter's invention of the Larnsti, Hendreik as the
founder of

> the magical brotherhood able to draw on the magic of a
Celestial Court

> deity unavailable elsewhere is a hero in a higher league than
say

> Hachrat Blowhard or Gorangi Vak.
        

        Surely not Gorangi Vak? One of my players will be so disappointed with you!                  

        Jeff         

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