Re: Re: PEOPLE: Broyan and the Larnsti

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_...>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:15:41 +1300


Joerg:

> >>However,
> >>following the Battle of Iceland, I think that Broyan is generally
> >>recognized as High King of the Hendriki (and of Heortland).

> > By whom?

>The Hendriki people of Heortland. A king in exile, though.

Most of the Hendriki of Heortland think the Kings that succeeded Andrin were their rightful kings.

> > Moreover being one of the six rulers implies recognition of the
> > Pharoah's status which is anathema to Broyan.

>Ever the dogmatic?

Broyan is described as ultratraditionalist.

>Besides, Broyan likes to think of himself as two of
>the rulers, and the Densesros CHDP propaganda seems to have supported
>that view.

What "two of the rulers" are you referring to and what segments of the CHDP support that claim?

> > No. OiD is simply a character bio which makes a simple statement
> > about Broyan leading some Larnsti.

>Which is our working premise right now. Jeff's main concern is the
>heroband following Broyan, not the brotherhood itself.

I get the opposite impression when Jeff claims that Broyan's heroband is the entire Larnsti. At the start of this thread, I said "For this reason I don't believe that Broyan is allied with the Larnsti as a whole but with some Larnsti". But he rejected that.

> > [The Larnsti] are not initiates of Orlanth but initiates of Larnste.

>I contend that the only Celestial Court deity with initiates is
>Uleria, and that only because she was greatly diminished (by her own
>doing, as she offered herself to the Boggles).

But Larnsti is no longer a Celestial Court deity - he's not even the Great God of Motion. Krarsht's bite was a very bad one.

> > The nearest
> > an Orlanthi can come to understanding Larnsti magics is through
> > the worship of Mastakos.

>The nearest thing an Orlanthi can come to understanding Larnsti magics
>through Orlanth, you mean?

No. Mastakos can easily be a shared subcult (ST p16) in the same way that the nearest thing an Orlanthi can come to understanding Issaries magics is through Harst.

>In Peter's original conception
> > The Larnsti are outside the cult of Orlanth
> > although they are communal worshippers of the Orlanthi Pantheon.

>This has a huge logical defect.

>Hendreik was an Orlanthi. King Andrin was an Orlanthi. Sartar was a
>hero for Issaries, but receives worship as Orlanthi hero.

There is no logical defect whatsoever. I clearly distinguished between cult of Orlanth (initiate status of Orlanth or greater) and Communal worship of the Orlanthi pantheon (under which Hendreik, Andrin and Sartar are clearly such). Sartar is not part of the Orlanthi cult but worshipped as a hero in the Orlanthi pantheon. He is listed in the same section as Vogarth the Strong Man who is not an Orlanthi.

>If the Larnsti have the power of change, than one application of this
>must be to change their membership in the Orlanth cult to allow for
>Larnsti membership.

Larnste and Orlanth are separate gods.

> >>(3) King Andrin replaced the true Larnsti with Larnsti-lite. The
> >>sheriffs have weakened the Spirit of Hendreik.

> > No, they haven't.

>They have displaced the communal worship of the Spirit of Hendreik
>from the Andrinic clan rites by their pharaonic version, I suppose?

No. The Andrini still worship Hendreik.

> > Moreover look at what the Larnsti did when Andrin created the
> > Sherrifs - they didn't revolt but stayed silent indicating that they
> > were unable to say whether the change was good or bad.

>The Larnsti didn't openly revolt against God Learners or EWF either,
>if I understood Peter correctly.

The silence of the Larnsti indicates however that they don't have an opinion on the Andrini reforms. As a result of this, many clans accept Andrin's reforms. This goes much further than not revolting openly.

> > Many people (including some Larnsti) now say that the change was bad
> > but in truth, the Larnsti still don't have a clue from their God.

>Larnste is too distant to give statements on social developments.
>(More so than e.g. Dayzatar.)

No, he's not. The Larnsti can do effective magic which is not true for most Dayzatar priests.

> > Broyan can leave Heortland. He was in Esrolia.

>We discussed that. He was in Esrolia after the Siege of Whitewall.
>Jeff used Broyan's Change into a Hidden King of the Vingkotlings as an
>explanation.

Except that Broyan's only apparent Larnsti power is his heroic escape. I would have thought that a Larnsti capable of transforming himself in such a way would have greater powers than Broyan's initiate level magic described in OiD.

Secondly there were Vingkotling Kings in Volsaxar before Broyan and he owes his position in part to inheritance.

> >>Broyan is "Leader of the Larnsti 5M2"

> > A relationship that only takes 10% of his time as opposed to an initiate
> > relationship to Vingkot (30%) and gives him a 25 warriors with escape
> > skills. For a magical brotherhood that's extraordinarily weak.

>That's the usual "additional subcult" price, isn't it?

Larnste is not a subcult of Orlanth.

> >> From OiD, I think it is safe to extrapolate that the Larnsti are
> >>Broyan's personal heroband and that there are "25 members of the
> >>Larnsti" left.
>
> > I disagree strongly. That interpretation flies in the face of
> > everything else that has been written about the Larnsti.

>In subsequent discussion, we found the formula "there are 25 Larnsti
>in the warband/heroband, and there is a reservoir of Larnsti to
>replace these warriors."

The discussion wasn't subsequent but occurred before Jeff made the above post. I do appreciate the effort to pour oil on troubled waters but I dislike the attempts to portray the sequence of posts as being something other than what actually happened.

> > Hendreik Freeman is a Hero and not a Guardian.

>Sartar is (well, was) a Hero and the Guardian of Sartar.

He's not the Guardian of Sartar, that's the flame which he brought back from the Westfaring.

>Probably the wyter of the royal family, too.

Wyter is an Orlanthi name for Guardian.

>Hendreik as the founder of
>the magical brotherhood able to draw on the magic of a Celestial Court
>deity unavailable elsewhere is a hero in a higher league than say
>Hachrat Blowhard or Gorangi Vak.

Larnste is no longer a Celestial Court deity and Hendreik's power is no greater than Alakoring Dragonbreaker, the hero who discovered two new facets of Orlanth (Ovanshagar Dragonslayer and Orlanth Rex).

--Peter Metcalfe

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