>>>By whom?
>>The Hendriki people of Heortland. A king in exile, though.
>Most of the Hendriki of Heortland think the Kings that
>succeeded Andrin were their rightful kings.
Yeah. Up to Rikard's precedessor. Neither Rikard nor Bandal Tigerbane are likely to have full approval.
>>>Moreover being one of the six rulers implies recognition of the
>>>Pharoah's status which is anathema to Broyan.
>>Ever the dogmatic?
>Broyan is described as ultratraditionalist.
This is a case of using an enemy's weakness. In love and war, everything is allowed.
>>>No. OiD is simply a character bio which makes a simple statement
>>>about Broyan leading some Larnsti.
>>Which is our working premise right now. Jeff's main concern is the
>>heroband following Broyan, not the brotherhood itself.
>I get the opposite impression when Jeff claims that Broyan's heroband
>is the entire Larnsti. At the start of this thread, I said "For this
reason
>I don't believe that Broyan is allied with the Larnsti as a whole but
>with some Larnsti". But he rejected that.
In Jeff's reaction to my post, he agreed with a reservoir of non-members with the necessary training to replace fallen members. Extrapolate from there to Larnsti outside of the heroband...
>>>[The Larnsti] are not initiates of Orlanth but initiates of Larnste.
>>I contend that the only Celestial Court deity with initiates is
>>Uleria, and that only because she was greatly diminished (by her own
>>doing, as she offered herself to the Boggles).
>But Larnsti is no longer a Celestial Court deity - he's not even the
>Great God of Motion. Krarsht's bite was a very bad one.
However, that change occurred after Larnste's hobbling away.
Prosopaedia
(http://www.glorantha.com/library/prosopaedia/l.html#larnste) says:
"Larnste's ultimate fate during the Gods War is uncertain. Some philosophers believe that he survived by transmuting himself into another form, god, or power, and thus is no longer Larnste."
In a document dating from 1998, Greg wrote:
"God of Change, member of the Gloranthan Court. Larnste was the entity which first brought variance to the world. Larnste first imitated the one Spike with the Four Mountains, then the Rockwood Range. Larnste allowed the waters to wash over the surface world, the mating of Aether and Gata, and many other radical actions. Larnste is not worshipped in modern times, and is considered the origin of the Movement/Change rune."
>>>The nearest
>>>an Orlanthi can come to understanding Larnsti magics is through
>>>the worship of Mastakos.
>>The nearest thing an Orlanthi can come to understanding Larnsti magics
>>through Orlanth, you mean?
>No. Mastakos can easily be a shared subcult (ST p16) in the same
>way that the nearest thing an Orlanthi can come to understanding
>Issaries magics is through Harst.
Mastakos is a god in his own stead, too. An obvious theory makes Mastakos the form Larnste took to survive the Gods War. It is possible that in his quest for Larnste Hendreik discovered an aspect of Mastakos that was more concerned with change than with movement.
>>In Peter's original conception
>>>The Larnsti are outside the cult of Orlanth
>>>although they are communal worshippers of the Orlanthi Pantheon.
>>This has a huge logical defect.
>>Hendreik was an Orlanthi. King Andrin was an Orlanthi. Sartar was a
>>hero for Issaries, but receives worship as Orlanthi hero.
>There is no logical defect whatsoever. I clearly distinguished between
>cult of Orlanth (initiate status of Orlanth or greater) and Communal
>worship of the Orlanthi pantheon (under which Hendreik, Andrin and
>Sartar are clearly such).
>Sartar is not part of the Orlanthi cult but
>worshipped as a hero in the Orlanthi pantheon. He is listed in the
>same section as Vogarth the Strong Man who is not an Orlanthi.
What makes you think that Vogarth was not an initiate of Orlanth? The cult of Orlanth has no entry requirements for brains.
>>If the Larnsti have the power of change, than one application of this
>>must be to change their membership in the Orlanth cult to allow for
>>Larnsti membership.
>Larnste and Orlanth are separate gods.
Mastakos and Orlanth are separate gods, too - not even from the same elemental tribe, yet Mastakos is worshipped as an aspect of Orlanth.
>>>>(3) King Andrin replaced the true Larnsti with Larnsti-lite. The
>>>>sheriffs have weakened the Spirit of Hendreik.
>>>No, they haven't.
>>They have displaced the communal worship of the Spirit of Hendreik
>>from the Andrinic clan rites by their pharaonic version, I suppose?
>No. The Andrini still worship Hendreik.
In a way that the Pharaoh profits from it, magically. Unless the inclusion of the Pharaoh in this worship adds to the magic available, the Spirit of Hendreik will receive less. It is a key to the Pharaoh's hold over the Holy Country that he leeches magic from the communal worship, at the cost of those deities which upheld the various Sixths' independence. The Spirit of Hendreik looks like a prime target in Heortland.
>>>Moreover look at what the Larnsti did when Andrin created the
>>>Sherrifs - they didn't revolt but stayed silent indicating that they
>>>were unable to say whether the change was good or bad.
>>The Larnsti didn't openly revolt against God Learners or EWF either,
>>if I understood Peter correctly.
>The silence of the Larnsti indicates however that they don't have
>an opinion on the Andrini reforms. As a result of this, many clans
>accept Andrin's reforms. This goes much further than not revolting
>openly.
How about:
At the emergence of the EWF, the silence of the Larnsti indicated however that they didn't have an opinion on the Dragonfriend reforms. As a result of this, many clans accepted the newly-fangled Draconic ways.
Even Sartar, with his several spectacular displays of magic, worked his greatest magics with great subtlety. I don't see the Larnsti as a collective acting differently.
>>>Many people (including some Larnsti) now say that the change was bad
>>>but in truth, the Larnsti still don't have a clue from their God.
>>Larnste is too distant to give statements on social developments.
>>(More so than e.g. Dayzatar.)
>No, he's not. The Larnsti can do effective magic which is not true for
>most Dayzatar priests.
I was talking about divine statements on social developments, not nifty magics.
>>>Broyan can leave Heortland. He was in Esrolia.
>>We discussed that. He was in Esrolia after the Siege of Whitewall.
>>Jeff used Broyan's Change into a Hidden King of the Vingkotlings as an
>>explanation.
>Except that Broyan's only apparent Larnsti power is his heroic
>escape. I would have thought that a Larnsti capable of transforming
>himself in such a way would have greater powers than Broyan's
>initiate level magic described in OiD.
>Secondly there were Vingkotling Kings in Volsaxar before Broyan
>and he owes his position in part to inheritance.
Who? Hardrard the Green?
I don't know about the rest of this list, but when I read the entry for Hardrard the Green the first time, I assumed he was a Larnsti who was elected as counter-king to Andrin, but lacking popular support in Gardufar and Karhend he holed up at Whitewall. There is nothing at all to indicate that Hardrard was a Vingkotling king.
The Orvantes are said to be a Star Tribe (despite being named like a Vingkotling Summer Tribe). They appear in the Silver Age, which would make them a Heortling tribe unless you suggest they held on to (less useful) Vingkotling Ways while their neighbors switched to Heortling Ways like the Garanvuli, Orgorvaltes and Sedenorvuli all around them.
If you know of any High Kings of the Volsaxi except those I listed under http://www.eparsnip.f2s.com/phpwiki/index.php?Volsaxi%20Kings please enter the Wiki and include them in the list, and make clear they were Vingkotling type kings. We are open for suggestions, after all.
>>>>Broyan is "Leader of the Larnsti 5M2"
>>>A relationship that only takes 10% of his time as opposed to an
initiate
>>>relationship to Vingkot (30%) and gives him a 25 warriors with escape
>>>skills. For a magical brotherhood that's extraordinarily weak.
>>That's the usual "additional subcult" price, isn't it?
>Larnste is not a subcult of Orlanth.
Do you have positive proof for that?
Larnste isn't listed as such in Thunder Rebels, true.
The Larnsti are an obscure magical brotherhood _not active in Sartar_, which explains their exclusion as handily as "not a subcult".
>>>>From OiD, I think it is safe to extrapolate that the Larnsti are
>>>>Broyan's personal heroband and that there are "25 members of the
>>>>Larnsti" left.
>>>I disagree strongly. That interpretation flies in the face of
>>>everything else that has been written about the Larnsti.
>>In subsequent discussion, we found the formula "there are 25 Larnsti
>>in the warband/heroband, and there is a reservoir of Larnsti to
>>replace these warriors."
>The discussion wasn't subsequent but occurred before Jeff made
>the above post. I do appreciate the effort to pour oil on troubled
>waters but I dislike the attempts to portray the sequence of posts
>as being something other than what actually happened.
Ok, I haven't checked the sequence, my bad. In that case, bad Jeff, no cookie. Now can we go back to the compromise I thought Jeff and I had reached, and continue from there?
>>>Hendreik Freeman is a Hero and not a Guardian.
>>Sartar is (well, was) a Hero and the Guardian of Sartar.
>He's not the Guardian of Sartar, that's the flame which he brought back
>from the Westfaring.
Did he perform a Westfaring during his Immolation Song? Because that is when the Flame manifested. Whatever Sartar brought from his earlier Westfaring was superseded by the Flame. Now the Flame is extinguished, Sartar cannot be contacted. Speaks volumes to me.
>>Hendreik as the founder of
>>the magical brotherhood able to draw on the magic of a Celestial Court
>>deity unavailable elsewhere is a hero in a higher league than say
>>Hachrat Blowhard or Gorangi Vak.
>Larnste is no longer a Celestial Court deity and Hendreik's power is no
>greater than Alakoring Dragonbreaker, the hero who discovered two
>new facets of Orlanth (Ovanshagar Dragonslayer and Orlanth Rex).
Alakoring is exactly the league I wanted to put Hendreik into, although I believe that Orvanshagor was present but obscure before.
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