Peter
>>>Broyan is described as ultratraditionalist [and so wouldn't
>>>recognize the pharoah to gain entrance to the City of Wonders]
Me
>>This is a case of using an enemy's weakness. In love and war,
>>everything is allowed.
>Nevetheless for very conservative enemies, there are some things
>that are not countenanced. The Pure Horse Tribe got its butt
>kicked because it refused to arm women (KoS p193). Having been
>part of a kingdom that fought against the pharaoh for so long,
>it seems very odd for an described ultratraditionalist to have
>compromised his principles in such a way.
I'll have to check the exact sources for Broyan being ultraconservative to evaluate whether using enemy magic to allow destruction of the enemy's capital is out of character. If so, so would be hiring the Wolf Pirates in the first place.
>>>But Larnsti is no longer a Celestial Court deity - he's not even the
>>>Great God of Motion. Krarsht's bite was a very bad one.
>>However, that change occurred after Larnste's hobbling away.
>>Prosopaedia
>(http://www.glorantha.com/library/prosopaedia/l.html#larnste) says:
>A God Learner prosopaedia. What would they know?
Actually quite a lot. It is not like there is a culture of Larnste worshippers to have a different bit.
>>In a document dating from 1998, Greg wrote:
>>Larnste is not worshipped in modern times
>An unpublished document which Greg had no qualms about contradicting
>when he saw the Larnste.
Please: the Larnsti.
The Larnsti as described as the wielders of Hendreik's freedom. Worshipping the (single) aspect of Larnste bound to the Footprint. "Worshipping" as per "receiving theist magic" - I doubt they sacrifice cattle or goods. Asceticism or something similar seems more correct.
>>>He is listed in the
>>>same section as Vogarth the Strong Man who is not an Orlanthi.
>>What makes you think that Vogarth was not an initiate of Orlanth?
>Because he has a history outside the Orlanthi which is described
>in "Morden defends the camp".
Which is a story of Pelorian _Orlanthi_ vs Heortlings. There is nothing to indicate that the host Morden faces are not Orlanthi, the Vanchite a possible exception.
>>>Larnste and Orlanth are separate gods.
>>Mastakos and Orlanth are separate gods, too - not even from the same
>>elemental tribe,
>Only the God Learners make such a statement. There's not a hint
>of it in Heortling myth.
You're right: there is an explicit statement of it instead. Thunder Rebels page 224 says "No one claims him merely as a guise of Orlanth, but no one worships him as a separate deity."
The Orlanthi worship a separate deity - incidentally the Holder of the Movement Rune - like a guise of Orlanth. They don't identify Orlanth with Mastakos - not with the planet, not with the great maelstrom of the sea. Not with the charioteer, either.
>> yet Mastakos is worshipped as an aspect of Orlanth.
>He's not. He's a subcult of Orlanth and is still separate from Orlanth
>in the same way that Harst, Drogarsi, Helamakt and others are.
Harst, Drogarsi and Helamakt are recognized as guises of Orlanth. Orlanth performed the contest of music as Drogarsi. As Harst he solved one of the tasks put to him by Ernalda. And so on.
>>>>They have displaced the communal worship of the Spirit of Hendreik
>>>>from the Andrinic clan rites by their pharaonic version, I suppose?
>>>No. The Andrini still worship Hendreik.
>>In a way that the Pharaoh profits from it, magically.
>I am bemused by the attempts to objectively portray the Pharaoh as a
>bad god who has only his interests at heart.
And I'm bemused that you get this impression. I'm as pro-Pharaoh as you can get. But the Pharaoh has the interest of the combined Holy Country at heart, towards which each of the Sixths had to sacrifice some integral part of their great magics.
>The kings of Sartar
>profited magically from the cult of Sartar but we never hear similar
>analysis about how they weakened the tribes of Sartar by their acts.
The Kings of Sartar merged them to manifest a wyter - the only Gloranthan means to create more magic out of the existing resources than they would have summed up as individual powers I have learned of. There is one king who weakened the tribes of Sartar by expending this wyter for the Tarsh Exiles. That's Tarkalor. Terasarin put up a good fight, but he was overwhelmed by magic. Salinarg never had a chance.
>The Emperor of Kralorela rules by a similar method but scarcely
>anybody describes him as a wicked leech.
The Emperors of Kralorela have not recently (on a demigod ruler timescale) browbeaten six cultures and taken over their greatest magics.
>Yes, the Pharaoh does receive magic from Heortland. There's nothing
>intrinsically wrong in that nor does it weaken Heortland as a whole.
I agree - the magic taken by the Pharaoh from all Sixths provides a shield over the entire Holy Country, so that the overall effect for Heortland remained intact while the Pharaoh was there. In 1605 this meant that he used all the resources for the Building Wall.
> >The silence of the Larnsti indicates however that they don't have
> >an opinion on the Andrini reforms. As a result of this, many clans
> >accept Andrin's reforms. This goes much further than not revolting
> >openly.
>>How about:
>>At the emergence of the EWF, the silence of the Larnsti indicated
>>however that they didn't have an opinion on the Dragonfriend reforms.
>>As a result of this, many clans accepted the newly-fangled Draconic
ways.
>Except that the EWF didn't extend into Heortland as it was an ally
(of sorts)
>of the Only Old One. The main foes were the God Learners whom it is
>said that the Hendreiki survived by "clinging to their ancient
freedoms and
>remaining true to them".
Their ancient freedoms as manifest by Hendreik's followers, the Larnsti, right? Or why else did the Andrini value the Larnsti magics the sheriffs could offer higher than their clan identities - which made them Orlanthi?
According to your history, it seems the Andrini simply said "Ok, we'll stop having clans. Let foreigners schooled in Larnsti magics commune with our wyters, direct our magics, distribute our odal property". Subtracting those who just left (to Sartar and the Grazelands) and those who were forced to accept this, I'm still baffled that the Andrini so willingly sacrificed so much of their identity. And that's not to make a point in a discussion, that's something I'd like to have explained, overcoming a great amount of buts.
>>>No, he's not. The Larnsti can do effective magic which is not true for
>>>most Dayzatar priests.
>>I was talking about divine statements on social developments, not
>>nifty magics.
>Except that the social development happens to be an alleged major
>impact of the magical freedom of the Heortlanders. So Larnste would
>comment on that.
Why would Larnste be concerned with the freedom of the Heortlander Orlanthi? And not the Sartarite Orlanthi, or the Tarshites around Travelling Stone?
>>>Secondly there were Vingkotling Kings in Volsaxar before Broyan
>>>and he owes his position in part to inheritance.
>>Who? Hardrard the Green?
>Yes.
Interesting to learn. What do you know about his lineage?
>A chief feature about Vingkotling Kings is that they hold their
>title through traceable descent from Orlanth.
A completely correct statement.
Traceable descent from Heort (which at least every second Heortling can cite) means traceable descent from Orlanth. Is Hardrard's any better than that?
>>There is nothing at all
>>to indicate that Hardrard was a Vingkotling king.
>So Broyan converts the elective title of Volsaxar kingship into
>a hereditary one and nobody complains? Even in Tarsh, that
>change provoked a major rebellion.
Given Broyan's lack of heirs, the danger of this kingship actually being inherited by another is not an issue. Auccessfully assuming the title of High King means quelling a major rebellion.
Broyan became High King by virtue of his merits. His Larnsti ties suggest that he'd require the same virtues from his successor.
>>The Orvantes are said to be a Star Tribe (despite being named like a
>>Vingkotling Summer Tribe).
>I have no idea what the Orvantes have to do with the leadership
>practices of the Volsaxar. Could you explain further?
The Orvantes are the only tribe in Dawn Age Volsaxar which are not counted among the list of Heortling tribes at the Dawn in Storm Tribe. I wondered whether you meant them to be the origin of the Vingkotling high kingship in Vosaxar, since everywhere else I looked I found no indications for that.
But if you meant Modern Age Volsaxar, this side track won't lead to much outside of the Bacofi tribe.
>>>Larnste is not a subcult of Orlanth.
>>Do you have positive proof for that?
>Look at the scale and capability of Larnste's magic.
When Larnste was a member of the Celestial Court, yes.
Let's assume that Larnste has a cult, just like Uleria has.
The Uleria cult doesn't have the power of parthenogenic birth any more. It merely has magics for sexual fertility. That makes the former universal magic of fertility very limited to the cultists.
Using this optimistic parallel for the Larnsti, their grasp of the magic of the Celestial Court God is limited. I know of no mountain or mountain chain seeded by a mortal Larnsti. The only Orlanthi mortal I know to have assigned the proper places for the dead and the living was Heort - who most probably was not a Larnsti. Or was he?
>Not only
>what Sartar did, but the mythical events that Larnste was
>capable of doing (soul arranger etc). Does that look reducible
>to a single subcult to you?
No. This looks reducible to a certain number of subcults, and only one of these is available to the Heortlings of Kethaela. Larnsti who transcend this get powers of the magnitude Sartar had.
What looks reducible to a single subcult of Orlanth is the "Change for Freedom" affinity the Larnsti appear to have in your writings.
And to another single subcult of Orlanth by the name Mastakos, wielding the Movement part of the Change Rune.
"Larnste's ultimate fate during the Gods War is uncertain. Some philosophers believe that he survived by transmuting himself into another form, god, or power, and thus is no longer Larnste."
There are known aspects of Mastakos the Mover which aren't covered by the single subcult known to the Heortlings. These are "lost" cults of the merfolk, or maybe not so lost ones, too. The Heortlings don't know. They'd have to transcend their culture to get remotely close to understanding these. Survive the Baths of Nelat, which ordinarily only the Sea Tribe can hope to have a chance at.
I'm convinced that there is a lot more potential in the worship of Larnste than just "Change for Freedom". However, IMO this is available through "mystical" means - personal experiences not available through teachings - not through additional affinities.
Feel free to detail another picture of the Larnsti, their role in history, and their cult in the world, and present it to us. I'd be interested if we're really disagreeing or just not communicating.
Details about Heortland and Sartar during the siege may well relate to the events of the siege. Like the availability of Fazzur's expeditionary corps to the siege command. Like the quelling of the Kultain - which troops did it, on whose authorization? Like supply lines from Karse, Jansholm and Wilmskirk.
While these aren't in the center of the focus, they are sufficiently on topic to deserve a short page on the WhitewallWiki.
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