Re: Broyan and Larnste

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_...>
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:12:02 +1300

At 09:25 AM 3/12/04 +0000, you wrote:

>I'll have to check the exact sources for Broyan being

Thunder Rebels p6.

>to evaluate whether using enemy magic to allow
>destruction of the enemy's capital is out of character.

If Broyan were a Praxian, I feel he would reject hiring Broos to fight Lunars.

>If so, so
>would be hiring the Wolf Pirates in the first place.

Which is the moral flaw that got him done in.

> >>What makes you think that Vogarth was not an initiate of Orlanth?

> >Because he has a history outside the Orlanthi which is described
> >in "Morden defends the camp".

>Which is a story of Pelorian _Orlanthi_ vs Heortlings.

So? Vogarth is still said to be known in Central Genertela which includes more than the Orlanthi, the last time I looked.

> >He's not. He's a subcult of Orlanth and is still separate from Orlanth
> >in the same way that Harst, Drogarsi, Helamakt and others are.

>Harst, Drogarsi and Helamakt are recognized as guises of Orlanth.

And they are worshipped by cultists of Issaries, Donandar and Heler indicating they are not just guises of Orlanth.

> >I am bemused by the attempts to objectively portray the Pharaoh as a
> >bad god who has only his interests at heart.

>And I'm bemused that you get this impression.

When you described the Pharaoh as leeching magic. When you describe the pharaoh as ruining the freedom of the Hendreiki. etc. etc.

>But the Pharaoh has the interest of the combined Holy
>Country at heart, towards which each of the Sixths had to sacrifice
>some integral part of their great magics.

Do they? Why do they have to sacrifice? Why don't they move in synergy instead? Nobody makes the same arguments about Sartar so why should we concern ourselves with auditing the costs and benefits of Pharaonic rule, the effects of which are unknowable?

> >Except that the EWF didn't extend into Heortland as it was an ally
> >(of sorts) of the Only Old One. The main foes were the God Learners
> >whom it is said that the Hendreiki survived by "clinging to their ancient
> >freedoms and remaining true to them".

>Their ancient freedoms as manifest by Hendreik's followers, the
>Larnsti, right?

No. The general practice of freedom in Heortland, i.e. not keeping slaves and the like.

>Or why else did the Andrini value the Larnsti magics
>the sheriffs could offer higher than their clan identities - which
>made them Orlanthi?

One can worship Orlanth without being in a clan.

>According to your history, it seems the Andrini simply said "Ok, we'll
>stop having clans. Let foreigners schooled in Larnsti magics commune
>with our wyters, direct our magics, distribute our odal property".

I don't know where you got foreigners from. Could you explain? The reformation of heortland was a native one and it is made clear that the process was not a radical one.

>Subtracting those who just left (to Sartar and the Grazelands) and
>those who were forced to accept this, I'm still baffled that the
>Andrini so willingly sacrificed so much of their identity.

They haven't. It's like saying that scots have ceased to be scottish by not living in clans.

> >Except that the social development happens to be an alleged major
> >impact of the magical freedom of the Heortlanders. So Larnste would
> >comment on that.

>Why would Larnste be concerned with the freedom of the Heortlander

Because the Larnsti are worshipping him for that benefit.

>And not the Sartarite Orlanthi, or the Tarshites around
>Travelling Stone?

Because no Larnsti live there.

> >A chief feature about Vingkotling Kings is that they hold their
> >title through traceable descent from Orlanth.
>A completely correct statement.

>Traceable descent from Heort (which at least every second Heortling
>can cite) means traceable descent from Orlanth.

No. Traceable through a bloodline of which the genealogical rules are more restrictive than simple lines of descent. The Players Book Genertela spoke thus:

         Usually among the equal minded Orlanthi, kingship
         is usually restricted to members of several bloodlines
         who trace paternal ancestry back to Orlanth.
                         PB: G p16.

That doesn't sound like one in every two and I don't think Heort's lineage qualifies as he is not descended from Vingkot.

> >So Broyan converts the elective title of Volsaxar kingship into
> >a hereditary one and nobody complains? Even in Tarsh, that
> >change provoked a major rebellion.

>Given Broyan's lack of heirs, the danger of this kingship actually
>being inherited by another is not an issue.

Why is it not an issue? Is it general knowledge that he's impotent? If it isn't, then he can still beget heirs after coronation and so it becomes an issue.

> >I have no idea what the Orvantes have to do with the leadership
> >practices of the Volsaxar. Could you explain further?

>The Orvantes are the only tribe in Dawn Age Volsaxar which are not
>counted among the list of Heortling tribes at the Dawn in Storm Tribe.
>I wondered whether you meant them to be the origin of the Vingkotling
>high kingship in Vosaxar, since everywhere else I looked I found no
>indications for that.

The key criteria for Kingship is blood-lineage. It doesn't matter where one's ancestors were at the Dawn as people can migrate through tribes and clans .

>Using this optimistic parallel for the Larnsti, their grasp of the
>magic of the Celestial Court God is limited. I know of no mountain or
>mountain chain seeded by a mortal Larnsti.

Which doesn't mean that a Larnsti couldn't grow a small hillock.

>The only Orlanthi mortal I
>know to have assigned the proper places for the dead and the living
>was Heort - who most probably was not a Larnsti. Or was he?

Apart from the worshippers of Chalana Arroy, Humakt, Issaries and Ty Kora Tek, you mean? Given that, I don't see the problem with Larnsti having soul arranging powers.

> >Not only
> >what Sartar did, but the mythical events that Larnste was
> >capable of doing (soul arranger etc). Does that look reducible
> >to a single subcult to you?

>No. This looks reducible to a certain number of subcults, and only one
>of these is available to the Heortlings of Kethaela.

Which is? Glorantha: Intro says otherwise

         Hendreik's secret lay in that he was a worshipper of Larnste,
         the God of Motion. By remaining free in thought and deed, no
         one could ever subdue his people. Although Hendreik embodied
         freedom, the Larnsti were not restricted in the mysteries of the
         God they chose to study.

         Glorantha: Intro p143.

>I'm convinced that there is a lot more potential in the worship of
>Larnste than just "Change for Freedom". However, IMO this is available
>through "mystical" means - personal experiences not available through
>teachings - not through additional affinities.

What's wrong with Larnste being worshipped through ordinary theism? Why do we have to muck around with mysticism?

--Peter Metcalfe

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