Re: Volsaxi, Volsaxar, Vingkot

From: jorganos <joe_at_...>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:57:30 -0000


Jeff Richard wrote:
>> A goodly portion of the new Hendreiki people were Berennethtelli
>> refugees from the wars in Saird who had gravitated away from the
>> Talastari. They may have brought some of their ancient tribal
>> specialities - like horsemanship, Kuschile archery etc.

> There were likely some Berrenethtelli in the new Hendreiki - but
> not a goodly portion.

I'd like to trace the Runegate Triarchy back to the Berennethtelli, via the Hendreiki.

>> Apparently, no humans wanted to live even near the Crossline. During
>> the first century of the Inhuman Occupation, the Troll Woods were a
>> powerful player in the conflicts in Kerofinela. There is no mention of
>> Kitori presence in the Troll Woods then, but neither is there negative
>> evidence. 

> I imagine that the smaller tribes of the Volsaxi confederation
> settled during the Resettlement period.

The Bacofi were in place when Karstan expanded the Volsaxi territory.         

>> Personally, I think that most of the Kitori still lived in and around
>> Akez Loradak. I have no idea whether they herded and rode camels, or
>> some other whacko human tribe did (if there is any flesh to the
>> rumor), but since their disappearance from public view after the
>> defeats against Palangio they seem to have hidden near Ezkankekko,
>> rebuilding their population.

> I think we should be very vague and imprecise in our conception
> of the Kitori. I am pretty sure that they are the one thing that no
> matter what we write, we will end up being thoroughly Gregged - my
> recommendation is that we write something that is open to a wide array
> of interpretations. That way, whatever ultimately comes out from II,
> we'll still be ok.

I'd like to have some logical sequence for the Kitori moments. I'm not happy with the notion that the Pharaoh sent them out to punish the Volsaxi. If my ideas are about to be rerereGregged, so be it, but this won't keep me from making suggestions.

>> The Bacofi appear to be the first Heortling reclaimers of the northern
>> region. Hagard the Blond recovered the Marzeel Valley from the trolls
>> (DP:LoT p. 40):
>> "The lands here were unsettled for centuries until Hagard the Blond
>> and his four clans moved in and cleared it, driving out the trolls.
>> His descendants are the Bacofi Tribe."
>> Without dates given, I'd make this sometime around 1200, too.

> Sure, or even 1300.

The later we have them arrive, the stronger the trolls of the Troll Woods will have recovered from the war against the dragonewts and beastfolk. The other two tribes (Curtali and Sylangi) have no warlike settlement story we know of, so they could be later.         

>> This leaves the Volsaxi proper. They seem to have been fairly
> small.

> Here I think I disagree. The Volsaxi are a big tribe in 1621 -
> according to one source they number around 50,000. This is why I think
> that they are a Vingkotling tribe in their own right and not just wrt
> the Volsaxi confederation - they are the numerical equivalent of four or
> five Heortling tribes.

We don't disagree. I meant "small in comparison to the Jondalaring or Hurlant tribes", i.e. as one of the four large tribes of the Hendreiki. The other tribes were about double the size of the Volsaxi.

>> Belintar's conquest of the Shadow Plateau left the Obsidian Palace
>> Kitori who survived the fall of Akez Loradak homeless. IMO they
>> migrated down from the Plateau into the lands their roving kinsfolk
>> had started to claim a century or two earlier.
>> They regard the Pharaoh as the cause for their emigration from
>> civilized city life, and IMO keep a grudge. When they work on his
>> behalf later in the history, they do so most likely as mercenaries.  

> You may be completely right and I like this interpretation, but
> let's not hinge anything on this being necessary. As I said, I think
> that anything involving the Kitori is a walking neon sign saying "This
> Material Will Be Gregged, Repeatedly." I'd keep them open to multiple
> interpretations.

This relates to anything we write on the interactions with the Kitori.

There are few immutable facts about them:

We ought to make a few proposals, if not assumptions, regarding the Volsaxar Lesser Tribe resettlement into Kitori-dominated lands.

>>> When Andrin returned from the dead as the slave of >>> the Pharaoh, they fought against Andrin the Zombie, but were ultimately
>>> forced to accept him as High King (c. 1350) .

>> Jeff's Heortland King list has Andrin returning in 1325. That's way
>> too late - IMO Andrin was returned just a season after he was killed.
>> Too late for ordinary Chalana Arroy resurrections, but that's about it.

> I wanted Andrin to be gone long enough for the Hendreiki to
> "disintegrate" and enough social turmoil and strife to happen that (1) a
> lot of folk would be willing to consider leaving for Dragon Pass, and
> (2) a lot of folk would be willing to accept Andrin - no matter how
> radical his changes are. I gave seven years - how about just two or
> three?

IMO his return has to happen before Belintar's final confrontation with the OOO. Belintar's war against the OOO was won through his subversion of the various Sixths allied with Ezkankekko. He probably did not need the military support of the Heortlanders once they were removed from the opposite side, but IMO he needed their magic. Especially since his encounter with the Leaden Serpent turned out to be a Dragonslaying like Orlanth beating Sh'hakarzeel.

I'd say that returning the reformed Andrin would facilitate this. And I see nothing wrong in his return not being accepted by a major portion of the Hendreiki. See Gustin Hammer for this movement. If Andrin barely manages to unite lowland Gardufar and parts of Karhend, the rest may well disintegrate.

>>> Nonetheless, they
>>> resisted many of Andrin's reforms and never allowed sheriffs to replace

>>> their chiefs or earls to replace their kings. 
>> Acting much like the out-of-the-way highland clans and tribes in the
>> Stormwalk foothills - those Jeff dubbed "Heortlending".

> Yep. I'm trying to come up with a more precise terminology for
> Heortland history. We've got the Hendreiki (the tribe formed by
> Hendreik the Free and protected by the Larnsti) and the kingdom of
> Heortland (the reformed kingdom of Andrin). I think the Hendreiki are
> now those who follow the old ways, and the Heortlendings are those who
> follow the reforms. And then there are the Esvulari Aeolians.

My term is "Andrini" for the reformed kingdom and "traditionalist Hendreiki" for the dissidents. There are Andrini Esvulari and Aeolian Esvulari, plus other Malkioni whose allegiance was wrestled from the God Forgot Talars.

>>> During the
>>> reign of High King Arkellor the Clerk, King Karsten Nine-with One of the
>>> Volsaxi feuded with the Bacofi tribe and warred with the Earl of >>> Karhend.

>> Karsten could be seen as the builder of Volsaxar?

> Maybe he established the original confederation that was
> restored by Tarkalor and Enfrew? Works for me.

He certainly brought the Bacofi to heel. I don't know whether the Sylangi and Curtali already existed, if so, yes.

WRT Enfrew, I have my doubts that he remained king throughout Tarkalor's action. I find it quite likely that a successor was restored to the original High Kingship after Enfrew had been weakened by the Kurtali clan.

>>> During the reign of High King Eparikondos the Holy, the
>>> Volsaxi participated in the Great Sacrifice along with the other
>>> Heortlending tribes.  However, when  ***** Earl of Gardufar was
selected
>>> High King, the Volsaxi rebelled. King Hardrand the Green - a member of
>>> the Larnsti brotherhood - was proclaimed High King of the Hendreiki
>>> despite of the Pharaoh's acknowledgement of the King of the
>>> Heortlendings.  The High King and his companions took up residence in
>>> the impregnable fortress of Whitewall to resist the Pharaoh (circa
1405)
>>> and King *****. Although the Volsaxi failed in restoring the Kingdom of
>>> the Hendreiki, they remained independent of the Pharaoh and the >>> Heortlending kings.

>> Yup. The date might be a bit late for my taste, but otherwise I agree >> completely.

> The date is completely movable. I wanted it to be after Andrin,
> and thought there should be at least one or two Andrini kings before
> there is a serious challenge to the Andrini reforms (sort of like there
> was nearly a century between Augustus' assumption of power and the first
> serious challenge to the Roman Principate during Nero's reign).

Oh, I agreed with the rough sequence of kings of Heortland. I just have Andrin's Zombie reign start earlier and last not quite as long, with his direct successor (or his Esvulari earl) expanding in the south.

>>> The Pharaoh got his revenge when he unleashed the Kitori Darkmen upon
>>> the Volsaxi and they conquered the lands from the Kitori WIlds to the
>>> Shadow Plateau (circa 1500 or so). 

>> I think that the Kitori don't see the Pharaoh as their legitimate
>> ruler. Neither will there be much love lost, after all Belintar's
>> conquest destroyed Akez Loradak (and don't tell me the Kitori
>> differentiate that it was their troll allies who summoned the Leaden >> Serpent who actually caused the destruction).

> This is from the Volsaxi POV. It doesn't really matter if the
> Kitori were the Pharaoh's allies or not. I think the Volsaxi would
> blame them both.:)

As long as the Volsaxi "in"-voice remains separate from the Andrini version of the history, go for world conspiracy theories among the Volsaxi. I dislike the use of the Kitori in this way, but as you said the Kitori references should leave broad alleys of detail solutions.

This is why the term "conquest" can be subject to Gregging, too.         

>>> The Volsaxi held out in their
>>> fortress of Whitewall, but their fields and herds were subject to annual
>>> raids by the Darkmen. The other tribes paid an annual tribute to the >>> Darkmen. During the Kitori Occupation, the Volsaxi Night Jumpers raided
>>> the Darkmen.

>> The Kurtali clan basically ignored King Enfrew's wishes, weakening the
>> High King. This probably allowed Tarkalor to enter as warlord (similar
>> to Argrath of Sword Hill).

> Yeah. We should really come up with the Kurtali clan - they
> seem to be an independent clan within the Volsaxi, centered around a
> very funky troll-fighting heroband (the Night Jumpers). I expect they
> are very small - kind of like the legendary Irish Finians.

The relation between Kurtali clan and Curtali tribe needs to be cleared up. Reading the Curtali descriptions in BA and DP:LoT, I find little similarity between the Kurtali "Violence is always an option" sending the Night Jumpers to "There is always another Way".

My current idea is that the Kurtali clan sort of founded the Curtali tribe, leading the other clans into the region, but either got fed up with the peaceniks or was kicked out for their continued feud against the Kitori.

>>> The Volsaxi aided Prince Tarkalor in conquering the Kitori
>>> and formed the Volsaxar Confederation with the other liberated tribes
>>> (Bacofi, Curtali, and Sylangi).

>> "The Volsaxi" as united people under the High King, or Volsaxi >> volunteers uniting behind Tarkalor's banner?

> Don't know - and I don't think we need to answer that for the
> Whitewall background. Is Robin still writing his book?

To my knowledge, the first book is at least ready for layout, but the Issaries funds are apportioned elsewhere. Robin showed his head on the HeroQuest group this week. Should we interview or invite him?

>> If Broyan's father was king, I'd prefer there to be other members of
>> the dynasty taking over the crown because Broyan was just a minor when
>> his father was slain. A little bit of Shakespeare's Richard II/Henry
>> IV won't hurt.
>> Fazzur's strike towards Karse will have rearranged the dynastic
affairs.

> How about Broyan being a nephew of the king? Important magical
> leader and very respected warrior and warleader. His uncle dies in the
> 1605 strike towards Karse and Broyan is selected king by his kin. This
> doesn't make Broyan anti-Pharaoh for personal vendetta reasons - but he
> does inherit an explicitly anti-Pharaoh crown of an explicitly
> anti-Pharaoh kingdom. Isn't that enough to make him hate the False God
> King? Heck, my Orlmarthi players still hate the Pharaoh in 1610 and
> they'd support Broyan in his anti-Pharaoh activities.

Not sure I like the early date for Broyan's crowning (torcing). A date slightly before 1613 will do as King of the Volsaxi. The interim king (1605 to say 1610) could be an elderly or sickly uncle or other male relative. The 1605 strike may well have wiped out the entire royal branch of the family - leading to a side line inheriting the crown, with Broyan "second in succession".

1610 has Heortland defending against the Sartarites. What was this about? Do we want Broyan as King of the Volsaxi during this conflict? Could we have another king-slaying in battle?

And I'd still like to see Broyan's bid for the Hendreiki crown in 1617.

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