>>>For a loooooong time, I labored under assumption (which Joerg and I >>>created) that the Volsaxi were in many ways less materially >>>sophisticated than the Sartarites. I no longer believe that.
That was back when we also assumed that the Volsaxi were different from the Hendriki, and consisted of the three named Whitewall tribes (Bacofi, Curtali, Sylangi), and an audaciously invented fourth tribe (the Dunlaingi - which I suggest we use as a wealthy clan's name now). We did sort of assume that Smithstone was Hendriki. Instead of Andrinic, we said "westernized".
I even believe that we coined the term "ultratraditionalist" back then...
Alex:
>> Perhaps this relates to an earlier bout of cross-purposeness, to wit on >> the "(ultra)traditionalism" of the V., which I've been meaning to get >> back to: Jeff:
> Let's double-check our sources.
And weed out the assumptions above.
> IIRC Broyan is described in TR
> as an "ultratraditionalist" - not the entire Volsaxi tribe.
I'd like to pipe in that IMO Belintar overcame Andrin in a contest of Lawspeaking (invoking the Lawstaff), by providing evidence and witnesses (Silver Age heroes) that Andrin's interpretation of Heort's Laws was flawed. Some of the Andrinic reforms addressed a change back to an earlier form of Heortling society (and Peter once said that the titles Baron, Earl etc. were Old Heortling offices), some were drastically different (abandoning clans).
Now, how about Broyan having consulted the same witnesses, but coming to rather different conclusions in keeping with the Darvolsaxi traditions?
> We know
> that the Volsaxi resisted the Pharaoh and the Andrinic Kings, that they
> have a well-established herocult of Hendreik the Free, that they have
> Vingkot High Kings and a strong Vingkot cult, and that they support the
> Larnsti Brotherhood.
Yep.
> And that they quite legitimately can trace
> themselves back to the Dawn.
This they cannot. At the Dawn they were Garanvuli or Sedenorvuli. Volsax the Founding Hero split off one of these tribes in the first or second century.
> For the sake of this discussion, let's talk about the Volsaxi
> (and not Broyan + Volsaxi). I've been working with Greg on Broyan's
> background and knowing more about the Volsaxi is very helpful for that.
>>> > Except, I don't think that the Volsaxi are some sort of cultural >>> > equivalent to Cato the Younger or the Amish, wearing long out-of-date >>> > fashions or peppering their speech with anachronisms. >> The Amish I did not (and Cato I would not) mention, so I dunno how those >> "counterexamples" help us. Dress and language I don't know about, but I >> think if you told most Heortlings they dressed and spoke like they were >> still in the Storm Age, they'd say 'Why, thank you.'. (Some group may >> be explicitly influences by the West or (gasp) Peloria, perhaps.)> to say that the Volsaxi consciously reject Andrinic, Pharaonic, and
> Without using the word "ultratraditionalist", I think it is safe
I'd make this social influences, too. Nothing wrong with borrowing some technology:
> Even if they have heavily armored weapons-thanes and huscarls that ride
> on horses and use shock attack.
Which isn't all western if you read KoS-Battle of Stormfall.
> I believe that they view the Pharaoh,
> the Andrininc reforms, and (later) the Lunar Empire as incompatible with
> their hero - Hendreik the Free. At the same time, the Volsaxi may have
> more of a noble "class" than the Sartarites - the kingship is confined
> to members of the Darvolsaxi clan.
Do they have other lineage-related offices?
>>>- and strongly embrace some very old Orlanthi >>>cults (e.g., Vingkot) and reject some more popular Orlanthi cults (e.g., >>>Alakoring Rex). >> Indeed. I think the Vingkot thing is of particular significance, as it >> implies to me, not quite a "pre-Heort" status (since demonstrably they're >> certainly Heortlings in that sense, and not Vingkotlings per se) but a >> distinctly different importance put on 'Heortish' vs. older customs. If >> one looks at the Vingkot cult(s), they're very much of the character of>> "religion like it was back in the Storm Age" (Bright Emperors? Kill >> 'em. Kingship? Lineal succession. Etc, etc.)
> This may be an overstatement. The Volsaxi tribe is pre-Harmast
> in formation (and may well be the oldest continuously extant Heortling
> tribe).
How did they become Hendriki? Someone (Peter or Jeff) mentioned that Hendrik's followers (from among the Garanvuli) left wife and stead. Their roving band became the kernel of the Hendriki tribe.
> Vingkot appears to be one of the more aristocratic Orlanthi
> cults - it does glorify the warrior, the magician and the king, over the
> carl.
Actually more the war leader than the warrior.
> Based on discussion with Greg, Vingkot is also the victory cult
> for the Orlanthi - before going to battle, King Broyan sacrifices a bull
> to Vingkot for battle-luck. Vingkot provides an alternative to Humakt
> (and Starkval) for war-kings.
Though not as written in TR, where the Victorious subcult is part of the Adventurous aspect.
> I do think the Volsaxi have a well established cult of Vingkot -
> and I am darn sure that Whitewall is the center and holy place of the
> Volsaxar Vingkot cult. Vingkot may well be the main Orlanth subcult
> amongst the Darvolsaxi (who probably don't have a whole bunch of farmers
> and such). However, we are know described the noble elite of the
> Volsaxi and not 98-99% of the tribe.
What are the economics of a noble clan? What is expected from their members? Are the Darvolsaxi youths regarded as Tarkalors or Dorasars waiting to emerge?
> Most of the Volsaxi should be largely indistinguishable from the
> other pre-Andrinic Hendreiki.
Yep.
>>Not so much as a whiff >>of "Lightbrighterist" attitudes. I may be playing this up for reasons >>related to themes in my own game, or the Volsaxi may be less >>"Vingkotish" than this paints them, but that's my best guess.> Hendreik doesn't predate him by much).
> The Volsaxi and Hendreik the Free predate Harmast (although
Hmm. Harmast emphasized the role of the priest over that of the king, probably to countermand the extreme power gathered by Lokamayadon. The priests, given this enhanced role, went over the top when they created the Third Council of the EWF, and Alakoring re-emphasized the role of the King (although probably different from where Lokamayadon's contemporary Heortlings came from). The Hendriki drew from Heort's original Heortling traditions and their own idiosyncratic traits which helped them ignore Lokamayadon. The Volsaxi (like probably several more of the Dawn Age tribes) had linealist nobility. While Harmast and the anti-EWF developments will have changed their ways too, probably less than other tribes less anchored in their apartness.
> That being said, I think that
> most Volsaxi are largely indistinguishable from Sartarites. The big
> difference is that they have a royal clan, and they have a very old
> history (which given the proximity of the Derensev Library, is a written
> history).
Maybe - the Derensevs' pride is oral tradition.
> The Volsaxi leaders have much better access to their past
> than most Sartarites.
The past contained a number of permanent changes, like the first two Larnsti reforms.
>> Another data point is the old TotRM "Rumour" about the Volsaxi using >> 'the last Orlanthi to use chariots'.
> I wrote that rumour!
And now it turned up as "evidence against us". Much like some of the old ideas mentioned above... ;-)
> I think the Volsaxi kings ritually use
> chariots - hopefully the Whitewall walls are wide enough for a chariot
> to ride on top! I don't think (anymore) that the Volsaxi use chariots
> in warfare.
I'd like to think that the Darvolsaxi do. They might even have another specialized charioteer clan. Chariots are quite useful combat platforms which give a leader elevation and mobility in one. They can carry a vast load of missiles compared to flyers or ordinary javelineers, and backed up by good magic they should have their uses in open field battles. I don't think that they are shock troops, though.
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