> I even believe that we coined the term "ultratraditionalist"
back then...
Sadly enough, yes.
> > IIRC Broyan is described in TR
> > as an "ultratraditionalist" - not the entire Volsaxi tribe.
> I'd like to pipe in that IMO Belintar overcame Andrin in a
contest of
> Lawspeaking (invoking the Lawstaff), by providing evidence
and witnesses
> (Silver Age heroes) that Andrin's interpretation of Heort's
Laws was
> flawed. Some of the Andrinic reforms addressed a change back
to an earlier
> form of Heortling society (and Peter once said that the
titles Baron, Earl
> etc. were Old Heortling offices), some were drastically
different
> (abandoning clans).
> Now, how about Broyan having consulted the same witnesses,
but coming to
> rather different conclusions in keeping with the Darvolsaxi
traditions?
Sure - but instead of Broyan, I'd suggest Hardrand the Green. He's the one that split the Volsaxi from the Heortlendings and fought against the Pharaoh.
> > And that they quite legitimately can trace
> > themselves back to the Dawn.
> This they cannot. At the Dawn they were Garanvuli or
Sedenorvuli. Volsax
> the Founding Hero split off one of these tribes in the first
or second
> century.
Volsax was a clan chief at the Dawn and became chieftain of all the people in the Marzeel river valley. Years later, his clan became the chieftain clan of a tribe. The Volsaxi clan (now the Darvolsaxi) can trace themselves back a long time with a lot of continuity. Although many other clans claim Dawn Age founders, they don't have a lot of continuity.
> > Without using the word "ultratraditionalist", I think
it is safe
> > to say that the Volsaxi consciously reject Andrinic,
Pharaonic, and
> > other Western influences - especially religious and ritual
influences.
> I'd make this social influences, too. Nothing wrong with
borrowing some
> technology:
> > Even if they have heavily armored weapons-thanes and
huscarls that ride
> > on horses and use shock attack.
> Which isn't all western if you read KoS-Battle of Stormfall.
I agree. The Volsaxi (and other Orlanthi) use mounted heavy troops. In fact, that is the meaning of "thane" for the Heortlings (at least according to an old discussion with Greg).
> > I believe that they view the Pharaoh,
> > the Andrininc reforms, and (later) the Lunar Empire as
incompatible with
> > their hero - Hendreik the Free. At the same time, the
Volsaxi may have
> > more of a noble "class" than the Sartarites - the kingship
is confined
> > to members of the Darvolsaxi clan.
> Do they have other lineage-related offices?
Don't know. Should they?
> > This may be an overstatement. The Volsaxi tribe is
pre-Harmast
> > in formation (and may well be the oldest continuously
extant Heortling
> > tribe).
> How did they become Hendriki? Someone (Peter or Jeff)
mentioned that
> Hendrik's followers (from among the Garanvuli) left wife and
stead. Their
> roving band became the kernel of the Hendriki tribe.
Yep. After the Gbaji Wars, the Hendriki became the overtribe of the region. The Volsaxi were part of the Hendriki tribe - maybe as a clan, more likely as a component tribe. My own belief is that the Hendriki were established as independent of the restored High Kingdom of the Heortlings (which was basically a ceremonial entity).
> > Vingkot appears to be one of the more aristocratic Orlanthi
> > cults - it does glorify the warrior, the magician and the
king, over the
> > carl.
> Actually more the war leader than the warrior.
Fair point.
> > Based on discussion with Greg, Vingkot is also the victory
cult
> > for the Orlanthi - before going to battle, King Broyan
sacrifices a bull
> > to Vingkot for battle-luck. Vingkot provides an
alternative to Humakt
> > (and Starkval) for war-kings.
> Though not as written in TR, where the Victorious subcult is
part of the
> Adventurous aspect.
Yep - but remember there are all sorts of rituals outside of TR. Vingkot V. might not provide a Battle Luck feat, but might provide Victory-Bringer ritual magic. Sacrifice a bull to Vingkot before battle for victory. That sort of thing.
> > I do think the Volsaxi have a well established cult
of Vingkot -
> > and I am darn sure that Whitewall is the center and holy
place of the
> > Volsaxar Vingkot cult. Vingkot may well be the main
Orlanth subcult
> > amongst the Darvolsaxi (who probably don't have a whole
bunch of farmers
> > and such). However, we are know described the noble elite
of the
> > Volsaxi and not 98-99% of the tribe.
> What are the economics of a noble clan? What is expected from
their
> members? Are the Darvolsaxi youths regarded as Tarkalors or
Dorasars
> waiting to emerge?
The economics of a noble clan is tribute, cattle-loans, gifts, and rights over various lands. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the clans pay the Darvolsaxi a variety of different tributes for the right to farm particular areas, herd in certain areas, etc. The Darvolsaxi have their own (probably pretty extensive) herds - which are loaned out to other clans.
So what is expected from their members? Probably military and religious service and tribal leadership. I imagine that a young member of the Darvolsaxi is expected to either fight, perform ceremonies, or manage tribal affairs (including the web of cattle-loans, marriages, and the other webs that tie the tribe together). The members of the kinship group provide muscle and support for the clan leaders. In fact, there is probably a semi-permanent warband of 60-100 or so well-equipped and mounted Darvolsaxi warriors that form the core of the Volsaxi military strength. This might be the King's Household troops in the military forces spreadsheet.
Remember our previous discussion about divided tulas and scattered lands (on the Wilmskirk list)? The Darvolsaxi are probably a good example of this. Probably their "tula" is Karstanstead and Whitewall. And they may have "loaned" land around Karstanstead to other clans, who pay them a tribute for that right. Could actually be a pretty complex - and the subject of sagas from the Derensev sages. In fact, it might take a Great Library just to keep track of all this legal stuff. I do think that we need to take advantage of the presence of Derensev as the "house lawyers" of the Volsaxi.
> > The Volsaxi and Hendreik the Free predate Harmast
(although
> > Hendreik doesn't predate him by much).
> Hmm. Harmast emphasized the role of the priest over that of
the king,
> probably to countermand the extreme power gathered by
Lokamayadon. The
> priests, given this enhanced role, went over the top when
they created the
> Third Council of the EWF, and Alakoring re-emphasized the
role of the King
> (although probably different from where Lokamayadon's
contemporary
> Heortlings came from). The Hendriki drew from Heort's
original Heortling
> traditions and their own idiosyncratic traits which helped
them ignore
> Lokamayadon. The Volsaxi (like probably several more of the
Dawn Age
> tribes) had linealist nobility. While Harmast and the
anti-EWF
> developments will have changed their ways too, probably less
than other
> tribes less anchored in their apartness.
This is a helpful organizational approach (although the Volsaxi don't really have lineal nobility - they have a noble kinship group).
> > That being said, I think that
> > most Volsaxi are largely indistinguishable from Sartarites.
The big
> > difference is that they have a royal clan, and they have a
very old
> > history (which given the proximity of the Derensev Library,
is a written
> > history).
> Maybe - the Derensevs' pride is oral tradition.
Oratorical skills - at least according to ST. They are the rhetoricians of the Lhankhor Mhy cult. I imagine Cicero and "Black Dan" Webster. Volsaxi aristocrats seeking rhetorical training from Derensev sages. I guess the Volsaxi ought to be reknowned as the best speech-givers of the Heortlings. Actually - this is really cool and we should emphasize it!
> > The Volsaxi leaders have much better access to their past
> > than most Sartarites.
> The past contained a number of permanent changes, like the
first two
> Larnsti reforms.
Yep - but they actually have access to what those changes were, when they happened, etc. The Volsaxi have probably had their own Snorri Sturlusson or even several.
> >> Another data point is the old TotRM "Rumour" about the
Volsaxi using
> >> 'the last Orlanthi to use chariots'.
> > I wrote that rumour!
> And now it turned up as "evidence against us". Much like some
of the old
> ideas mentioned above... ;-)
I know. This is why I have a lot of sympathy for Greg when he gets accused of "Gregging" something he wrote.
> > I think the Volsaxi kings ritually use
> > chariots - hopefully the Whitewall walls are wide enough
for a chariot
> > to ride on top! I don't think (anymore) that the Volsaxi
use chariots
> > in warfare.
> I'd like to think that the Darvolsaxi do. They might even
have another
> specialized charioteer clan. Chariots are quite useful combat
platforms
> which give a leader elevation and mobility in one. They can
carry a vast
> load of missiles compared to flyers or ordinary javelineers,
and backed up
> by good magic they should have their uses in open field
battles. I don't
> think that they are shock troops, though.
Maybe - but I'd prefer to have it be more a magical and ritual thing.
Jeff
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