Chris made a point I wanted to make, too: Jane, the parallels you are using, and the public you are catering too, have a decidedly British background, which isn't shared by a large part of the rest of the Gloranthan community. To me, Celts are people living in and around the Alps, not island dwellers. (Those of Boudicca were Belgans, anyway, same kind of people who later became the Saxons.)
Jane Williams
>> >Bou-who?
>> She's a Kallyr analogue for Roman Britain.
> I was trying so hard to avoid using that as primary description... even�in
> my admittedly biased opinion the analogue probably ought to be the other
> way round.
Not at all, in my opinion, except that she is a female leader of a pre-feudal society of warlike farmers.
Most importantly, Boudicca wouldn't have accepted exile at Larnste's Table, but there is also the lack of Kallyr's abused children and dead husband which makes a ton of differences.
> But yes, this sort of thing is one reason why I view the Lunars
> as primarily Roman. Their conquest of Sartar is so obviously a parallel
> with the Romans in Britain (and Gaul, though I know less about that).
I don't see the British parallel, myself - it is a very continental conquest. The closest parallel to me is the conquest/annexation of the Danubian Celts subsequent to the conquest of Gaul, with the Romans coveting their network of trading cities and the riverine trade route. Buy-out of some tribes, sharp conquest of others masked as "liberation" from the Suebes (Grazers? Praxians?).
Perhaps a better analog is the Frankish conquest and cultural subversion of the Western Slavs. Heck, the Bohemian kingdom was founded by Frankish merchants... (Franks=Tarshites, Phargentes comparing to Charlemagne)
> I
> can't point at any one individual and say "that's Cartimandua, who settled
> her differences with the next tribe and her ex-husband by using Roman
> allies", but I am pretty sure that Cogidubnus' palace at Fishbourne is in
> the Nymie valley.
Those names tell me less than Ordenviru or Deshlotralas, Jane... as I am sure that my obsession with oppida such as Manching or Kelheim will be totally alien to you, despite the fact that they make excellent examples for Sartarite cities near the Creek-Stream River and tributaries.
> Hmm, some of the Far Place battles are echoes of what
> happened to the Romans in Germania, too. TeutoburgerWald, anyone?
Teutoburger Wald would be the battle where Fazzurites destroy a Heartland contingent marching into the Pass. Far Place sounds a bit like the 9th Legion legend (which I only know through the young adult novel by Rosemary Sutcliffe).
> Did any invasion of Sartar use elephants? If it doesn't yet, we really
> ought to write some in.
No elephants. Dinosaurs.
>> The point Greg makes about the Persian Empire as an analogue rather >> than the Roman one is that the Persians were far more tolerant of >> cultural differences within the Empire.
> And the problem with the analogue is still that hardly anyone knows that.
So let's not use analogs, but state these facts frankly, and then tell where the inspiration came from. Let's get productive, not controversial.
>> That's why the Sartar Rising books introduced all sorts of Heartland >> soldiers - most are not significantly better than the provincial >> (Tarsh) army but there different styles of fighting provide interest >> and a new challenge to players.
> Which is fine, except that if they're interesting in that they differ from
> the standard: where did the standard go?
Lunars don't have standards. There is an occupation force made up of the Cavalry Corps and a few standing Heartlander units. The presence of a Phalanx in Pavis must be due to Sor-eel's connections to nobility. Peltasts are the troops of choice for occupied hill barbarians. Stone Phalanxes are pretty useless for policing. They may be good to crush local uprisings, provided they aren't attacked on the march. Which appears to have happened over and over again.
>>Stuart Cogger:
>>> But I find it hard to get away from everything I loved about the >>>Lunar army as presented in White Bear, Red Moon. >>>Built around the Stone Phalanxes as the toughest 'normal' unit. >> There's absolutely no reason to get away from that. The Stone >> Phalanxes are still there although with thousands of years of Dara>> Happen tradition and magic rather than Lunar stuff. The Beryl >> phalanx appears in Barbarian Adventures.
> True, they do. We can't have our old friends the Marbles, since we KNOW
> they're up in Pavis (in gradually diminishing number in Swords, for some
> reason), but at least we get one of the Stone elites.
The majority of Fazzur's command (as I envision it) are medium cavalry similar to that of the city confederation militias of Sartar, mixed with exotic units not from the Heartlands but mainly its border regions. A major absentee in the WBRM boardgame are the Fazzurite troops, IMO - a special cadre of mounted hill barbarians using Lunar doctrine. They should be prominent between 1613 and 1619 (when they accompany Fazzur to Heortland and then Esrolia), and then sneakingly disband when Tatius takes over. In my Glorantha there are thousands of Provincial veterans in western Tarsh waiting to return to action while Fazzur fumes against Tatius intrigues. They remobilize in 1625 after Tatius gets eaten, but don't remain to fight Kallyr when Fazzur retreats upon hearing about the Phargantite coup against his followers. Next time they see action is during the conquest of Furthest, as allies of the Sartarites.
Fazzur has a lot in common with Belisarius as depicted in fiction. Both in Felix Dahn's "Ein Kampf um Rom" (a German young adults classic about the fall of the Ostrogoth kingdom in Italy) and in the Alternate History series by David Drake and Eric Flint. (There's a strong Wallenstein parallel, too, in Fazzur making warfare a lucrative industry for his holdings, equipping his troops along with providing a base for recruitment.)
The standard Lunar presence are Hearland officers (with their funny plumes) and assorted auxiliary troops, and only occasional professional peltasts. The Hoplites are on garrison duty in the walled cities, impressing the urban population (and the rural yokels visiting).
Lunar taxmen quite likely have mercenary guards along with Lunar auxiliary troops. Lunar engineers doing surveys or (somewhat futilely) trying to keep the Sartarite roads from falling apart will have some protection forces that may be recognizable as "legionaires" - Peltasts. (BTW an entirely Greek term for light to medium infantery, not at all Roman. But then the original run of RuneQuest miniatures had Sartarite Humakti in Greek mercenary style armour and helmets.)
Your average Lunar regular would be a Peltast, or Provinvial Militia. Take the bunch in Tarsh Wars, or think Heortling mercenaries pressed into militia service...
Give them purplish coats to identify them, if you like, or at least reddish scarves.
In another post, the Lunar Empire was compared to the British empire, but the lack of the Channel was lamented. The Lunar Empire has the Glowline, folks...
Anyway, it is good to have the list back in activity. Keep it up!
Cheers,
Joerg
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