Re: Dragonrise arc

From: jorganos <joe_at_...>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:50:20 -0000


Jane Williams
>> Chris made a point I wanted to make, too: Jane, the parallels you 
>> are using, and the public you are catering too, have a decidedly 
>> British background, which isn't shared by a large part of the rest 
>> of the Gloranthan community.

> I am definitely assuming that we're writing (in English) primarily
> for people for whom English is their first language, yes.

From my point of view, that is about 50% true. I come from a place where people buy and use English language gaming material while gaming in another language, and that is true for much of the EU. Less true for France (which is why the French Glorantha community is interestingly different from the English language one), but very true for Scandinavia, Germany, the Netherlands, and apparently also Italy and Spain. That's quite a population base of non-native speakers.

> People who can write and RP in
> their second language are frighteningly clever and (I assume)
> quite rare.

People whose writing can compare to that of native speaker authors are rare (not sure I fall into that category, since I am quite painfully aware of the limited active vocabulary I am using when writing in English). Good enough for discussion purposes, and even gaming, but severly challenged when writing prose.

> Is the rarity an invalid assumption, then? If so, we may have
> to drop any assumption of common historical "knowledge" at all,
> which will be awkward.

There is some body of common historical knowledge, however, how those historical facts have been taught and what kind of associations you can share may be a different topic.

> I'd also assumed that anything non-British English-speakers know
> about history before their own history started would be from a
> British base, since that's where their ancestors would have been from. Not true?

Not true, I would say. There are the Irish, whose ancestors may have a different interpretation of historical interaction with the British, and there is a vast majority of US immigrants from Europe who adopted the language but not the history.

>>To me, Celts are people living in and around the Alps, not island
>> dwellers.

> Well, they occupied most of Europe originally,

Not quite. The Ibero-Celts and the people in the Balkan were related, as were the Belgans, but they sort of rode along. The places later inhabited by Scandinavians and Slavs were outside of their range. Germany beyond the Limes was a mix. The Cherusci and other tribes (who later formed the Saxons) were as related to the Celts in Roman territories as they were to the tribes along the Baltic Sea (i.e. Germanic migration groups, such as the Langobards).

> and invaded Delphi at one point. But the last bit to get conquered
> by the Romans was Gaul, then Britain, I believe?

Britain and the trans-Danubian Celts roughly around the same time, I think. The "conquest" of Caledonia came later, but was about as permanent as Roman presence at the Elbe.

Boudicca
>> Not at all, in my opinion, except that she is a female leader of a >> pre-feudal society of warlike farmers.

> Who had red hair, and led a rebellion that did well initially, then
> failed.

Failed heroically - something Kallyr avoided at Larnste's Table.

>> Most importantly, Boudicca wouldn't have accepted exile at 
>> Larnste's Table, but there is also the lack of Kallyr's abused 
>> children and dead husband which makes a ton of differences.

> No, as usual, when you start to look at the finer details, they're
> not identical. The broad strokes match, no more.

I disagree. Boudicca's story is the story of a wife becoming a military leader. A typical Vingan story, but not at all Kallyr's story.

>> Buy-out of some tribes, sharp conquest of others masked as >> "liberation" from the Suebes (Grazers? Praxians?).

> That's true of Britain as well, and I'd guess anywhere tribal that
> they conquered. That's just the way human nature works.

And (of course) Roman barbarian affairs...

>> Perhaps a better analog is the Frankish conquest and cultural 
>> subversion of the Western Slavs. Heck, the Bohemian kingdom was 
>> founded by Frankish merchants... (Franks=Tarshites, Phargentes comparing to Charlemagne)

> Sounds interesting: the school history I gave up at 13 didn't cover that.
> More reading to do...

That's not a topic anybody (but possibly the Czechs) is likely to encounter at school. The teachers themselves had difficulties to grasp events away from the main actors, in my experience, and historians often know a lot less about pre-industrial age history than your average wargamer. No written sources to dissect...

>> I can't point at any one individual and say "that's Cartimandua, 
>> who settled her differences with the next tribe and her 
>> ex-husband by using Roman allies", but I am pretty sure that 
>> Cogidubnus' palace at Fishbourne is in the Nymie valley.

>> Those names tell me less than Ordenviru or Deshlotralas, Jane...

> well, they're a bit shorter....

Not really, no. :)

>> as I am sure that my obsession with oppida such as Manching or 
>> Kelheim will be totally alien to you, despite the 
>> fact that they make excellent examples
>> for Sartarite cities near the Creek-Stream River and tributaries.

> Manching is in China? Kelheim is ringing bells...
> no, Googling that, you were talking about a different Manching.
> ah, yes, the rampart style, that's where I'd heard of Kelheim.
> Manching looks interesting.

Very interesting - if you are at Tentacles, I can show you some video material I bought at the museum there.

> Read up Cartimandua, she's fun.

Guess I will.

> But no, no use as a general analogue. It's
> Boudicca who every schoolkid knows about, and who features in every bit of
> fiction set in that period.

Roughly set in that period... I have a French comic series "Vae Victis" which has a red-haired British slave girl becoming an adversary of Caesar. Her name is Bodicea... About as historical as "300", but using De Bello Gallico imaginatively.

> The Fishbourne palace is famous because it's so well-preserved,
> and because as a result, we all go on school trips
> there, but again, I wouldn't bother using that as a public analogue.

Sounds like a place to visit when I next tour to the island...

>> > Did any invasion of Sartar use elephants? If it doesn't yet, we really >> > ought to write some in.

>> No elephants. Dinosaurs.

> Would they have been a strange new idea (and frightening because of their
> strangeness) to Sartarites? I'd have thought not.

The Vingkotlings fought against any strange frightening foe you can imagine, and some you and I can't. Heortling myth is full of that. I think the Heortlings would be very disappointed when an invader fails to produce strange new ideas in their invasions.

WIth the Lunars, it is use of harnessed Chaos. The Bat, Moonbeams (like the one with which Moirades slew Terasarin).

Wyvern riders are something the clans fought during the EWF

>> So let's not use analogs, but state these facts frankly, and then 
>> tell where the inspiration came from. Let's get productive, not
>> controversial.

> I think we're going to have to. If our audience don't know what
> we're refering to with ANY of this, the analogues are useless. Drat
> :( There's got to be some common cultural references somewhere, surely?

Sure. Let's take Caesar.

French version: Caesar and his legions conquered France and undertook pacifying expeditions across the borders. UK version: After conquering France, Caesar campaigned in Britain, and fought the druids.
German version: Having subdued the Helvetii, Caesar fought against the Suebes led by Ariovist, and pushed them back across the Rhine. Italian version: Having assured the loyalty of his legions in 10 years of campaigning in the north, Caesar returned to Italy. US version: Founder of the Roman Empire.

Maybe a bit exaggerated, but that's how school history relates to those events.

>> The majority of Fazzur's command (as I envision it) are medium cavalry >> similar to that of the city confederation militias of Sartar,

> (blinks) Cavalry? You see Sartarites as having that much cavalry, too?

Mounted troops. WBRM has equal numbers of mounted and foot units for the city militias. Conventional interpretation makes that twice as many foot fighters as horse fighters. All the historical sources show that from the late Roman period through the middle ages, those horse fighters would double as heavy infantry.

Whether they usually fought as cavalry has been debated, but KoS describes the Sartarite attack into Phoronestes' rear as a cavalry charge (during Palashee Long-axe's rebellion).

>> In my Glorantha there are thousands of Provincial veterans in
>> western Tarsh waiting to return to action while Fazzur fumes 
>> against Tatius intrigues. They remobilize in 1625 after Tatius gets eaten....

> That sounds like, again, good story.

I'd like to address the objection that their loyalty to Fazzur could have been greater than that to the Tarshite kings or the Lunar Empire.

First off, as far as I am concerned these are units created by Fazzur for the Tarshite conquest of Dragon Pass. Fazzur trains them, equips them, and leads them (when not falling into disgrace). In 1605 these units gain rich loot, experience, and pride in their Volsaxi campaign. After Fazzur's removal from command, they remain the Tarshite contribution to the Provincial Army. I suppose that they are part of the 1610 Praxian campaign, too, again serving under Fazzur. They are the core of the reaction force that trapped Kallyr's rebel army on Larnste's Table, again under Fazzur's command. They are the spearhead in the Volsaxi conquest of 1619, and Heortland 1620. All the time receiving loot, honors, etc. under Fazzur's command.

Let's assume a 7 year term of service, and we get another nice coincidence.

If they fought in 1605 in Volsaxar, they will have been called to arms maybe already for 1602, or in 1604 in preparation for the Holy Country campaign. This means they leave the service between 1608 and 1612. In 1613, Fazzur raises their standards again, calling them in for another 7 year term - which ends in 1620. While on campaign, they won't be sent home, but as soon as Tatius removes Fazzur, the active campaign effectively ends, and many of the veterans may be sent home.

Next call to arms will be in 1625, after the Dragonrise.

So, we get a body of veterans with only good experiences serving under Fazzur, recalled for Kallyr's rebellion. Yes, I do think that they will retire to Fazzur's lands after 1621...

> I haven't read the German one - will have to find and re-read the
> David Drake.

http://www.webscription.net/p-300-an-oblique-approach.aspx

A Baen Free Library book. Just download for free, and have a look.

>> The standard Lunar presence are Hearland officers (with their funny
>> plumes) and assorted auxiliary troops, and only occasional 
>> professional peltasts.

> but as I was quoting a while back, we have officers in Pavis
> refering to the hoplites as being the real Lunar soldiers. He
> at least thinks of them as being the standard.

Don't forget inter-service rivalry.

>> Lunar taxmen quite likely have mercenary guards along with Lunar >> auxiliary troops.

> Hire the PCs.... yes, it's got story, let's have it.

Naughty, yes... Guard the tax farmer against angry Heortlings, warband's honor...

>> Lunar engineers doing surveys or (somewhat futilely) trying to
>> keep the Sartarite roads from falling apart will have some 
>> protection forces that may be recognizable as "legionaires" - Peltasts.

> I'm sure they can have hoplites, too. The fact that they'd be no
> good at the job is almost irrelevant.

Yes. But my point is that they are unlikely to be sent on patrol into the roadless outbacks where your average Sartarite clan lives.

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