Re: Fazzur Wallenstein, horse breeds

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_...>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:45:56 +0100 (CET)


Donald and me, still going on:
>>> Which is why Tarsh has proper cavalry at all. The three counters
>>> represent the lancers and cataphracts raised. They aren't as good
>>> as the Heartland ones though because they haven't the long traditions.
>>> Traditional Tarsh shock troops are the Huscarls.

>>I don't quite agree. Yarandros, great-grandson of Arim, aka the
>>Charge-Crazy, rode into battle. I can only assume that he didn't
>>charge alone. Him having companions like Derik Pol Joni, founder
>>of a nomadic tribe of Orlanthi riders, gives further indication >>that there was a cavalry tradition in Tarsh. At least parts of Tarsh.

> KoS (pg. 118) says 'In battle Yarandros mounted his household men
> on the Goldhorses, and kept them close to him, ready to exploit any
> weakness, earning him the name "Charge-crazy."'

> So that's a couple of hundred years of tradition limited to the
> king's household. And it relies on being able to get Goldhorses
> from the Grazers.

I don't think that Goldhorses are the requirement.

> TiF implies that the unit has been rearmed as
> cataphracts in imitation of Heartland practices which will have
> weakened rather than strengthened the tradition.

Cataphracts are the equivalent to Carmanian chivalry - heavy enough to serve as mounted shock troops, able to dismount and fight as a phalanx, and equipped with missile arms to serve as mounted skirmishers if need be. Basically, the elite force of the civilized nations during the Dark Ages, whether Byzantines (as early as 4th century), pre-Karolingan Franks or Visigoths.

> That unit will be the Furthest Veteran's Horse in WBRM.

I have always regarded the three mounted units of the Tarsh militia as mounted infantry, the equivalent to the Colymar or Two-Ridge Farm (Malani) units of the Free Army. IMG the Tarshite cavalry had been joined with the Cavalry Corps for the conquest of Sartar, with 4-3-5 units like those remaining in the Cavalry Corps, or found as Sartar City Militia, Free Army or Barbarian Horde units.

The reason that they don't take part in many of the battles of Dragon Pass boardgame is that there is no Fazzurite faction in that game.

And another point: Fazzur's troops never were part of the Native Furthest force, but a contribution to the Cavalry Corps from the start. Possibly continuing a tradition of Tarshite forces in the Cavalry Corps when Phargentes was Provincial Overlord.

> The other Cavalry will be imitations. Only the best Cavalry Corps units are
> better than the FVH and they have thousands of years of tradition
> behind them.

I disagree. Strongly.

At least half of Tarsh is lowland maize country, perfect for dry farming, and perfect for mounted forces. Where you find similar lowlands in Sartar, you will find tribes heavily specializing on mounted warfare - the Dinacoli, and the Dundealos (who joined the Barbarian Horde after 1617, adopting a nomadic lifestyle).

You keep arguing that the Sartarites and Tarshites have only access to mountain ponies. I don't share that impression. One of the foundations for Fazzur's elite horse force were his family's horse breeding activities which brought stout sered stock to Tarsh, probably already before Palashee's rebellion. The same sort of horses used by the majority of the Cavalry Corps and Heartland cavalry units, from the Sairdite horse breeding traditions (which reach back to Dara Happan Nivorah) and improved by contact with Pentans and Carmanians during the EWF wars, Carmanian and Seleric occupations.

I may be a bit biased because my character (a Karse citizen, of Pelaskite background) had become a horse-breeder through his adventures (and marriage to a Elmal-Redaylde initiate, which fulfills his Lhankor Mhy requirement only to marry worshippers of Light). I even have fragments of a story how his estates north of Karse became Fazzur's headquarters during the short siege of Karse in 1619. Anyway, this character has been collecting breeding stock from Seshnegi, Grazer and Lunar sources, even Kralori breeds. This brought him a more than passing aquaintance with Fazzur...

Central Europe saw a change in heavy cavalry as a result of the horse plague which eliminated the native races (which resembled the Iceland "ponies", IIRC sometime in the 12th century) and the introduction of Arab horses first by the Islamic conquest of Spain, then during the fights against the Hungarian invasions (which culminated in the Battle of Lechfeld where German heavy chivalry beat the lighter Magyar raiders in a winter campaign - using stock that earlier had only served as draft horses for shock cavalry), and finally during the Crusades.

Grazer stock has been bred into Dragon Pass horses ever since the resettlers had first contact. Various rulers of Tarsh or Sartar managed to get their hands on Goldeneye stock, which certainly would have been used for breeding, too - even without the magical benefits, they would still breed superior stock.

Seshnegi or Carmanian breeds have been available for quite some time, too, and enterprising horse breeders like Fazzur's family (or my own character) will have tried to use them. The mundane horses required by Ethilrist as breeding partners for his demon horses would have to be superior size stock, too, and some may have been introduced into local breeds as well.

As a result, the pure highland ponies will have survived only in areas where heavier horses would be inferior. Colymar lands may have been such a place, excepting the Runegate triaty (who happen to be the most famous horse breeders in that tribe). The Malani might, too.

The Dinacoli will have brought Pelorian Sered stock when they immigrated. Raiding and trading will have distributed that stock to the other tribes of Sartar and the Far Point.

Ulanin's original horses may have been mountain horses, although I have also seen theories that Ulanin was the reasons that horses are no longer welcome in Prax. Anyway, the Orgovaltes tribe of the Vingkotlings and Heortlings had a tradition of horsemanship that tribes like the Dundealos continued, and carried back into Prax.

The Barbarian horde will have mixed horse stock from renegade grazer clans (e.g. the Amber Clan or the Narsil), former Sartarite horse folk (both original followers of Derik and later additions like the Dundealos refugees), and Pentan stocks from Derik's time as follower of Yarandros - I doubt he only stole their cattle.

All of this points towards the presence of larger horses in modern Dragon Pass than the original galanae or small sered breeds. And northern Tarsh, bordering on the lowlands of Saird with its own traditions of horse breeding (e.g. the Jillarans) and horsemanship, should have had that access, too. I see no point in giving the Lunar Tarshites mountain ponies when only Bagnot and Slavewall are in notorious hill territory. The Tarsh exiles are a different proposal, though.

>>> That is why I argue that the cavalry in the Sartar City Militia are
>>> in fact mounted infantry. Sartar is no place for cavalry horses but
>>> mountain ponies will be common and ideal for moving a warband quickly
>>> along trails a normal horse would struggle with.

>>Mounted weaponthanes, not full-time lancers, but medium-armed sword
>>troops, enough to charge the flanks or rear of infantry, and of
>>course to take enemy cavalry head on, but also ready to dismount and >>form up a shield wall. A counterpart to the Lunar dragoons, really.

> They're going to meet Lunar cavalry on full size horses while riding
> mountain ponies?

Which Fazzur's forces plainly don't do. They ride solid lowland seredae stock, interbred with Carmanian heavy cavalry horses for size and power. Possibly some strains of Pentan horses for endurance, too.

> Maybe the first time when they are ridden down by the weight of the
> enemy horses. Then they're going to dismount, form a shieldwall and
> let the cavalry bounce off them.

I was thinking of medium cavalry fending off medium cavalry harrassment.

> They may well sometimes charge into the flank or rear of enemy units
> while mounted but that's more Orlanthi impulsiveness than what they
> are best at.

This is one of the common tasks for the type of cavalry Fazzur has built up. Dragoons, or cataphracts.

>>> The population of Tarsh isn't going to support a much bigger army than
>>> the one in WBRM. Furthest is a city of about 20 thousand and has 2,000
>>> infantry and 1,500 cavalry. Everywhere else has less than 5,000 people.
>>> Probably a total population of 40-50 thousand supporting 7,500
>>> soldiers.
>>> TiF gives a list of units totaling 19,000* but more than half of those
>>> are part timers.

>>Tarsh has roundabout 300,000 inhabitants, almost twice the size of
>>Sartar. Fielding a lowly 7000 infantry and 1500 cavalry makes that >>less than 4 % of the population. Extremely low for a barbarian kingdom.

>>IMO the Dragon Pass muster usually is post-Dragonkill. Tarsh will have >>lost some troops there.

> The scenarios in WBRM are all post-Dragonrise but cover a decade
> or more. I'd suggest if the figures are low they reflect the fact
> that part time soldiers are rarely all deployed at once. It does
> however mean that losses can be quickly replaced.

There is no scenario that starts with Tarsh being occupied or divided, like after Argrath's crushing defeat at Yoran.

>>> Even allowing for outside financing that's a very high proportion.
>>> Few countries have ever supported more than 10% of the population
>>> in arms for more than the duration of an emergency.

>>Tarsh is in a state of conquest, and sufficiently barbarian to field
>>8% of its population for campaigns. They also use captured slaves on >>their maize plantations (including the function as fertilizer).

> The slaves must be part of the population figure of 360,000 (ILH1).

Twice that of Sartar, then.

> It also means that the city numbers in TiF don't include the areas
> round about which I thought they did. Some troops will need to
> remain at home in case of slave revolts so won't be available
> for fighting in Sartar.

Foot soldiers or light mounted hunters (to round up escapees). Basically the household troops of the local potentates, whether old clan nobility or new-fangled Lunar dignitaries. Other than that, the Native Furthest militia will serve for these emergencies.

>>>>I am certain that Moirades maintains close connections in Glamour,
>>>>if only to counteract the Sylilan ambitions to control the Provinces.
>>>>I guess it must smart that he did not inherit the post of Provincial
>>>>Overseer from his father, despite his success at becoming King of
>>>>Dragon Pass, and there will be a full regiment of Lobbyists working
>>>>to keep the Sylilans out of occupied Far Point and Sartar, and, if
>>>>possible, out of Kethaela as well.

>>> That's if he is head of the Association. I don't think he is, that
>>> will be someone in one of the Heartland leagues. If the Association's >>> priorities have shifted there may not be as much lobbying as he wants.
>>Even if he is not the head of the Association, he is the leader of at
>>least one important branch of the enterprise, possibly more than one.
>>At least as influential as TurEel in Champions of the Red Moon.

> He is the titular head of the League known as the Royal Family although
> perhaps Estal Donge is the real power. I expect other Leagues in the
> Association which are based in Tarsh defer to his leadership.

IMO Estal is a field agent rather than head of the League, but we can very well produce several options for the real head of that league, depending on campaign needs. Jeff Kyer demonstrated how to do this in his Manirian campaign.

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