Re: The Fall of Whitewall

From: Jane Williams <janewilliams20_at_q_y9bv2DdKVjDeVe15SJ0lwP6Qcda-KFHe7qwdTp3_rEjnFkQvFoRyetjfAcR>
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:51:39 +0000 (GMT)

> Jane: Lets?
>
> Well, I'm Canadian. Must be polite.

You're Orlanthi, and a Vingan at that. No-one can make you do anything, no-one can stop you from doing anything.

> Jane Williams:
> OK, here's the relevant few lines from Minaryth
> Blue's little diary:
> 1618 — Ashart is born. I purchase half a team.
> 1619 — Ulandrosi the Barker is in town. Lunar army
> seizes Karse.
> 1620 — Lunar army seizes all Holy Country. Black ram
> is mine.
> 1621 — Whitewall falls. Ashart dies of heat.
>
> Joerg:
> Who says that Ashart dies after the Fall of
> Whitewall? Minaryth provides a historical and a
> personal entry for 1621. The likelihood that Ashart
> dies before the Fall of Whitewall is fairly high -
> the
> battle takes part in the later half of the year.
>
> Alison:
> If there was a distinct pattern to the diary,
> showing that politically significant events are
> mentioned, followed by personal ones, I would agree.
>
> However, there isn't. Therefore, I side with Jane

And Peter, remember, who's pretty good at analysing that sort of pattern.

> Plus, it's MGF coming up with something
> convincing or interesting.

Actually, I'd prefer to be persuaded that chronology was the other way round, since we have more than enough to explain already. But I don't think it was.

> Joerg:
> As to the omission of the Battle of Iceland: it
> is a magical Kallyr feat, even though Broyan does
> the
> warleader bit. Looking at a comparable (though
> minor)
> incident, some group of Pavisite adventurers defend
> the cradle while Garrath Sharpsword does the magical
> quest. Whose feat is it? Garrath's...
>
> Alison:
> Now, Iceland I'm rather hazy on, as I don't
> have
> that book. If it took place on the Hero Plane, I
> suppose that Minaryth wouldn't know about it anyway,
> necessarily.

Quick summary, then (and go and buy the PDF of the book at least!).
Iceland: big battle. Broyan does a Summons of Evil and gets a Lunar army to fight. Lots of Orlanthi join up, big fight, Orlanthi win. Just.

At the same time, and more to the point ending at the same time, Kallyr does an LBQ (yes, a real one) to get Orlanth back. Or at least, Voria back, since she's the Goddess who makes a personal appearance. Compromise? What Compromise? The few stages of the LBQ we see suggest that Kallyr's doing a pretty weird variant, and after a lot of struggling, I did manage to make a few events in the battle fit bits of the LBQ, so they may be related.

After that, Spring comes back, Orlanthi and Ernaldan magic starts up again.

There may possibly be a reference to Iceland in CHDP. 1622: "King Broyan ambushed the Lunar Army, destroying some of the best soldiers of the Lunar army. The whole of Hendrikiland rose in rebellion. But they had to contend with the chaos monsters, and with wolf pirates, and so a small Lunar army quelled the rebels quickly by controlling the monsters. Broyan went into hiding."

What we don't get described is the preceding Fimbulwinter. This section is seen from the PoV of how Tatius was doing at avoiding interruptions to building a Reaching Moon temple in Sartar: having the place covered in snow and starving refugees might, one would have thought, messed up his logistics somewhat.

> Joerg:
> Omitting the Fimbulwinter might mean that the
> Argrath who was presented this book was away.
> Garrath
> on the Cradle, any of the others possibly away e.g.
> treasure-hunting in Dorastor or Wenelia. They might
> not even have noticed, at the time.
>
> Alison:
> If we're talking about Minaryth's segment, that
> doesn't compute. He was living in Colymar lands at
> the time (Hardredstead), so he should have been
> affected. Plus, it's a personal record, so it's
> less
> likely to show the effects of any political
> interference.

Agreed. He may or may not have been at the battle, but he'd have noticed the weather and the lack of magic. And his diary clearly wasn't interfered with by people trying to write Kallyr out of history, since crucial bits of evidence are right there.

> Secondly, if King Argrath was presented the
> Composite History of Dragon Pass, it should still be
> in. Knowing what's been happening to your subjects,
> wherever you were at the time, is fairly important.
> It should be listed, unless there's a very good
> reason.

And it's a history. Plenty of things get mentioned that no Argrath was present for.                                   



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