Re: The Carmanians in the Second Age

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_vWWqLsQpu9qpBg5arOAhgJTDzUwCFtq1Z1ckhRe3YsGEoNhwC3CtFoo9pBNSNRMsBXX>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:25:49 +1200


At 02:46 a.m. 25/03/2007, you wrote:
>Peter Metcalfe wrote:

>"The Carmanians believe in two gods, Idovanus and GanEstoro. Worship
>of Idovanus (Ahura Mazda) is good while GanEstoro (Angra Mainyu) is
>bad. The world should be understood in terms of the struggle between
>these two deities with Idovanus destined
>to be victorious."

>In Glorantha, Introduction to the Hero Wars, either you, Greg
>Stafford, or Roderick Robertson write: " The Invisible God created two
>beings to oversee the world of humans. Idovanus the Good God was
>overcome by Ganesatarus the Bad God, but since the dawn Idovanus'
>forces have been gaining power."

Rather than villify my colleagues, I offer up the following comments:

  1. the Glorantha: Intro is written in order to aid understanding. Saying that the Invisible God created Idovanus and GanEstoro is easier to understand than the correct description.
  2. I messed up my memory of the Unity Text. It was Primolt who begat I & G. The Idovanus created Idovanus conumdrum I was thinking of occurs elsewhere in the text.

>Since Zoroastrianism seems to be the major model for Carmanianism, and
>it also has a doctrine of a prime god Ahura Mazda, creating two
>secondary gods or primal Spenta Mainyu (the creative), and Angra
>Mainyu (the destructive), I am confused.

It is confusing and like Zorastrianism, the Carmanian Beliefs change over time. The Carmanians simply don't bother thinking too hard about how dualism came to be. People that try to get them into arguments about this can always be dismissed as Servants of the Lie.

> Please, if you can, give us the story
>of Carmanian religion (where did it come from?) and highlight any
>areas that are disagreements between authors.

A short summary of the Unity text (which is a synthesis between Dara Happan and Carmanian Beliefs so the Carmanians are free to repudiate this before, after or even during the composition of the text)

  1. Glorantha was.
  2. From Glorantha came Primolt, the first lone being.
  3. Primolt was aware of his loneliness and sought return to Glorantha.
  4. Glorantha was aware of his desires and created Uleria.
  5. Primolt united with Uleria and in doing so, he begat two gods: Idovanus and GanEstoro.
  6. GanEstoro hated Idovanus and tried to kill him by taking the form of a great dragon.
  7. In the resulting battle of the Two, the evil Dragon was killed and his body used to make the World. GanEstoro escaped in the form of an insect.
  8. The other gods appear.
  9. Idovanus makes Mt Jernalf and summons the Gods and names their ruler: Yelm in the Dara Happan text, Idovanus in the Carmanian text.

>It would also be interesting to know more about the magical contest
>from which the Carmanians found that their magic could be used for
>evil purposes. Did this take place in Loskalm?

No. It took place when Syranthir's army arrived in Pelanda.

>Why did the Carmanians really leave?

Because they were beaten by the God Learners with vastly superior magics.

>Did they leave because they wished
>religious freedom? Were they being persecuted? Were they driven out
>by the God Learners?

In the previous century, the God Learners had discovered a new revelation about God which they called the Abiding Book. They sought to spread its wisdom all over the world. But in Loskalm there were ignorants who condemned the Abiding Book as a gospel of lies. To prevent spiritual damage to the good people of Loskalm, the God Learners drove the ignorants out with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There's nothing about religious freedom there, just a dispute about right or wrong. The proto-Carmanians, if they had been victorious, would have done the same or even worse to the God Learners. As it is, the Carmanians blame their defeat not on superior magics but their own unwitting corruption by the Lie.

> When and where did Carmanos give his revelations
>to the people (before the journey or during the journey?)

Some decades after the journey.

>Me> When Surandar dies, the EWF is still faraway."
>
>When Surandur dies the EWF is still far away, but the EWF is seeking a
>foothold into Peloria, according to Glorantha the Second Age (GtSA).

Peloria is a big place. The foothold they obtained is in southern Peloria whereas the Carmanians are in the northwest. By way of comparison, it would be like the Mexicans trying to obtain a foothold in New England or the Canadians trying to obtain a foothold in Florida. Not that neither can't be done, it's just that there are certain limits on what can be done (ie no large troop movements).

>It is not until 875 that the borders of the EWF creep up to eastern
>Carmania. When the Spolite Empire threatened the Dara Happans, the
>EWF sent War Dragon detachments from Dragon Pass to fight alongside
>the Dara Happan Infantry.

The Spolite Empire is gone by 750 and had effectively controlled Raibanth in 689. So while the EWF could have confronted the Spolites, they would have done so through missionaries, heroes and holy men rather than troops as their strength in South Peloria wasn't all that great AFAIK. "War Dragons" is just the general Carmanian term for the EWF.

>This is how the EWF found out about the
>Carmanians. They approached Surandar, seeking alliance (a date is not
>given). I am imagining that this is new info (since two paragraphs
>are devoted to it in GtSA).

It's helpful to give a page number and having read the text, I suspect this is written from the view of EWF inflating their importance in century old events. Back then, the Carmanians would have been more impressed by the Denesiod dynasty of Dara Happa.

>880: White Dynasty began rule of Carmania (which I assume includes
>Dara Happa)

No. The Dragon Sun rules Dara Happa from 878 to 910 after the extinction of the Denesiod dynasty.

--Peter Metcalfe            

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