> I really like to inject a note of caution into all these theories about
> Argrath. The CHDP is an unreliable document that ascribes many
> things to Argrath which we know was done by somebody else.
> That the many Argrath events described therein have mostly been
> done by one Argrath is IMO an illusion created by the compiler in
> order to further glorify Argrath.
Hear, hear. I heartily agree. I don't want there to be a generally accepted Argrath. However, I like speculating on possible stories, because the stories are fun. I find all of the following equally unlikely: that the Argrath who becomes king did _none_ of the things ascribed to him; that he did _all_ of them; and that he did any particular subset of them.
It seems to me that we have been talking at multiple levels and it might be useful to segregate them:
1. For those who write in Glorantha, what are the possibilities I want to allow? 2. For those narrate in Glorantha, what is the Truth in my Glorantha? 3. For those who play in Glorantha, what might I want to convince my narrator is True?So, while many of these explorations are fun, and might be the Truth in many Gloranthas, I hope we are not trying to establish what Generally Accepted Glorantha is. There are things we might rule out, but I personaly hope that Greg's Great Argrath publication continues to allow many, contradictory Argraths. I suspect he'll manage some ambiguity, but OiD actually says that multiple people contributed to the Argrath story. (OiD 11.)
Roger McCarthy:
>I suggested a few years back on another list that Brennason
> could effectively be 'Argrath son of Argrath'.
Which is a brilliant idea that might be True in some Gloranthas and that any writings should try to permit.
> As I don't think there should be more than a couple of Argraths,
Humbug. I like more.
> I think there is also a good case for combining Maniskisson, White Bull
> and Garrath - as the story does seem to require an Argrath who is in
> Pavis in 1621 for the Cradle, sails away to join Harrek, comes back to
> Prax and raises a nomad horde using connections previously established
> living amongst the tribes and then leads it on to fight for the
> freedom of Sartar - and Garrath is around at the right time and in the
> right place to do all these things.
Well, I know nothing about Maniskisson, because he's some damn Outlander. But combining Garrath and White Bull is somewhat difficult. You could certainly decide that this is true, but there's another interpretation, starting around the battle of Corflu, which is an under-described battle as far as I can tell.
The battle is not described in Argrath's Saga as far as I can see. (Check KoS 20 - 23.) The next event described is Argrath returning to Prax in after the battle of Milran (described by one compiler to be in 1624). He then makes peace and summons Jaldon. Interestingly, one compiler leaves him out of the list of Praxians who come through the gate, under the apparent leadership of Yazurkial; Argrath appears to enter later. The other compiler says that Argrath led through the gate, but he's really questionable on this. Under both compilers, Argrath next appears in Sarter, with no mention of how he got there.
Now switch to the composite history (KoS 151-52). This says that, after the Battle of Pennel in 1624, Argrath returns to Prax and takes Corflu. Then he raises a big army, takes Pavis, moves toward Sartar, and gets his army slaughtered by Tatius' three-armed demon.
In Argrath of Pavis (KoS 177), we get a decent external description of some of the Battle of Cofrflu. It was a big one. "Argrath heard about the Battle of Corflu, where the Lunar soldiers tied their boats together to make a fighting platform, but were drowned when the frog-things sank the boats. . . . Argrath . . . prepared for rebellion. But as they were preparing to oust the small Lunar garrison, the army survivors straggled back." Somehow, despite having been defeated in battle and having to march back up the Zola Fel valley, they beat the mounted nomads back to Pavis.
I can't find anything saying that the Wolf Pirates sacked Corflu, though I have seen it mentioned many times on lists. What's the source for that?
In any case, the descriptions of the Battle of Corflu are all mixed up. Likewise, the Argrath Saga ignored the battle in which Tatius' demon destroys the White Bull Army. This tells me that the compilers were fudging. The reason for fudging about the latter battle could be because it was unimportant, because "the" Argrath wasn't there, or because he was there and we don't want to bring up that battle.
My main problem is that the peices talking about AWB and Garrath seem poorly joined; I have a hard time seeing the man who made peace between the Bison and Sable hanging around Pavis. Pasting the Harreksaga in between Garrath heading out to sea in the Cradle and the appearance of an Argrath with Bryan in particularly eGregious -- though that does not make it false. They you have another barely believable assertion: he participates in the Battle of Milran, but leaves before Pennel (assuming that the two are different). I don't see that the battle of Milran makes sense except as a holding action as Broyan matches to relieve Nochet. Why would Argrath leave? Very strange. But, of course, we don't have the whole story.
Here's what I suspect would be True in my Glorantha: Garrath goes out on Harrek's boat. He returns to Prax, by sea, with a contingent of Wolf Pirates, in Dark 1624. Maybe Broyan sent him to burn the lunar ships in port to prevent any reinforcement of Nochet by sea from Pavis. His attack is beaten off and he goes somewhere else; myabe he succeeds in burning the ships. The lunars send a bunch of men down-river in response; perhaps they were already headed that way to reinforce Nochet. Jaldon White Bull raises the tribes and invest Corflu. They can't take it immediately because of its isolation by water. The lunar contingent arrives and try to attack from the rear, but are themselves pinned between the nomads and their frog allies. (I would think these are Netwlings, but maybe not.) The lunars give up after a terrible defeat and march back to Pavis. The nomads use the magic they get from the Boat Planet to take Corflu, then start moving north. The nomads take Pavis in 1625. After internal dissention, most of the army moves towards Moonbroth, where Tatius's demon takes them apart in the second battle of Moonbroth. Jaldon Whitebull and a remant of his army takes refuge with the Pol Joni and eventually leads them to assist Kallyr. He's the Jaldon counter in the Dragon Pass board game. Other nomads displace the Sable leadership, breaking their alliance with the lunars. They then take Moonbroth in the third battle of Moonbroth (which no one in Dragon Pass cares about). In this version, the Argrath on p. 24 is Garrath, who returns to Pavis for allies -- a fyrd should be but Heortling types. He also takes credit for allying Jaldon Whitebull. I suspect he also brings Bad Dream back, represented by the Dragontooth Runner counter in the board game. So, in my Glorantha, they would be three people -- and Garrath could be the Prince of Sartar. After that, an Argrath returns to the Praxians sometime between 1635 and 1638 (p. 157-58). This could be any of these three Argraths, though.
But, if I was writing it for publication, I'd try not to invalidate anyone's pet theories. It seems like the Argrath who takes Corflu could be Garrath in Praxian get-up, so I'd write it so that Garrath could be Clark Kent to White Bull's Superman. One thing that seems impossible now is for whoever takes Corflu to be Maniskisson. Gathering Thunder clearly puts Maniskisson with Kallyr for the Sky Ship, which happen no later than Dark season (OiD 9). The attack on Corflu happens at about the same time (GT 67). So, if you like Garrath as Maniskisson, he's not the fellow who took Corflu and Pavis.
I don't see how Bad Dream could be the Argrath of the 1620's; but then, I can't make sense of Minaryth's 1629 note about the quarrel with Argrath of Pavis. (Is that one sentence or two? If two, is the subject "Telmori"? Or is this just a note that this year had a quarrel with Argrath of Pavis?)
Having Garrath win the contest in 1604 at age 14 (even) makes Garrath pretty old. If Garrath is born in 1590, that makes him 55 in 1645. With due respect to all ye olde fartes, 55 year-olds in the bronze age were generally somewhere between decrepit and dead. So maybe there's a change in the Argrath sometime in the 1638-45 time frame. There's an LBQ around that time; at the end of it, Argrath "returns" to find someone else on "his" throne (KoS 33), so that's a maybe.
Roger again:
> However the CHoDP does put an Argrath in the Holy Country in
> 1624 with Harrek:
> 'Argrath went back to Prax, and with the White Bull brothers
> and some others took the city of Corflu from lunar hands'.
> This statement is the basis of my theory that this Argrath must
> be he same one (Garrath) who accompanied the Cradle and
> joined the Wolf Pirates - and that if he is able to rally the White
> Bull brothers to take Corflu then there is a strong case for
> identifying him with AWB - as otherwise it is going to take no
> fewer than three Argrath's (one of whom may or may not also
> be a Jaldon) to take Pavis.
This is the very statement that seems most like it was just plain made up by a later historian who, faced with Argrath being in two different places close in time, assumes that he went from one to the other. There is little in the way of convinving explanation around it.
That's not to say that the opposite conclusion is true -- just that it is sufficiently suspect that I think it is reasonable for writers to be on both sides of the issue.
> But if AWB is a different Argrath from Garrath and is in Prax or
> the Wastes all along between 1622 and 1625 it is difficult to see
> how he could have meaningfully communicated with Kallyr far
> away in the Holy Country.
And maybe he didn't. I don't see anything saying he did. We were just playing with hypotheses.
Jane:
> He starts as on her side, at least: the others did
> not. And although working from negative evidence isn't
> exaclty reliable, if "the" Argrath had won AWB over to
> his side, I'd have expected CHDP to say so. Just the
> way AWB is ignored from then on is suspicious, to me.
<devil's_advocate>What do you mean "ignored"? The whole story is about him! He's Argrath, after all!</devil's_advocate>
Seriously, that kind of ambiguity is one of the beauties about KoS. It tells us lots and tells us nothing.
Jane, citing KoS p. 234-35:
> "I am Arnbord, Son of Venharl, of the Karandoli clan
> and the Colymar tribe. I am a poet, and I am a man of
> the chief of this camp."
Whoa. I never saw that before. What other Venharlssons of the Karandoli and the Colymar do we know? That really doesn't fit with my image of White Bull, Garrath, or Bad Dream. We lack a first name only for White Bull, but he doesn't live in Pavis unless he is one of the other two. His claim to be "a man of the chief of this camp" might make sense as a statement of slavery, and the statement was only "heard" in Pavis, so I suppose Venharlsson could be White Bull. OiD says he's a different person, of course. (OiD 11.)
Peter asks:
> Do the nomads care about the cradle?
Yes. They know about giant babies. They were aligned with giants that tried to protect the Zola Fel birth canal from Outlander empires. They have prophecies about the giants returning. But . . .
> The average praxian doesn't give a broo's arse about what
> heroes have done. They are far more interested in what heroes
> have done for them. Defending the cradle is not something
> that is going to impress the nomads.
Damn straight. The prophecy was fulfilled when we saw it. Defending a single cradle is nothing. The White Bull calls us to free the entire valley, to free Holy Prax of Outlanders.
Michael Hitchens:
>I would expect them to recognise demonstrations of strength.
> Anyone successfully defying the Lunars will make some impression.
They boarded the giant cradle and fled, instead of staying and fighting. Outlanders are cowards. Outlanders come and Outlanders go. Pay them no mind. The moon people only stay because they can live with the other Outlanders beside the Land within the Walls.
Chris
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