Re: How many Argraths?

From: Jane Williams <janewilliams20_at_QTW9sIhHddjYKSIu8BBeipDfz9yKz2G6BBWmuGg3MeOSGEHe7bHOYimR-6HB8>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:59:53 +0100 (BST)

much good stuff that I agree with, and,

> I can't find anything saying that the Wolf Pirates
> sacked Corflu, though I have seen it mentioned many
> times on lists. What's the source for that?

Now I go looking, I can't find it either. CHDP explicitly has them elsewhere.

> One
> thing that seems impossible now is for whoever takes
> Corflu to be Maniskisson. Gathering Thunder clearly
> puts Maniskisson with Kallyr for the Sky Ship, which
> happen no later than Dark season (OiD 9).

Good point, I'd missed that. An addition since I last worked on this area.

> The
> attack on Corflu happens at about the same time (GT
> 67). So, if you like Garrath as Maniskisson, he's
> not the fellow who took Corflu and Pavis.

Or he can move from one to the other pretty fast. I actually like the idea that at least one person does both Cradle and Sky Ship, since they're almost the same quest on different levels, but it needn't be him. It's probably a PC.

> I don't see how Bad Dream could be the Argrath of
> the 1620's; but then, I can't make sense of
> Minaryth's 1629 note about the quarrel with Argrath
> of Pavis. (Is that one sentence or two? If two, is
> the subject "Telmori"? Or is this just a note that
> this year had a quarrel with Argrath of Pavis?)

Let's check wording.
"1629 — We kill Dinacoli. Queen Kallyr marries at last. Telmori promise revenge, quarrel with Argrath of Pavis."

All depends on what that comma means: and relying on details of puncutation in a hand-written document is risky. And are any of those three statements related by more than having happened in the same year? I can't tie it to the CHDP account at all.

> Having Garrath win the contest in 1604 at age 14
> (even) makes Garrath pretty old. If Garrath is born
> in 1590, that makes him 55 in 1645. With due
> respect to all ye olde fartes, 55 year-olds in the
> bronze age were generally somewhere between decrepit
> and dead.

Although it is known that some heroquesters avoid aging (somehow!). Kostajor Wolf-Champion, Jareel. "The" Argrath may well have managed the same trick. Maybe. No need to let age rule out possibilities.

> Jane:
> > He starts as on her side, at least: the others did
> > not. And although working from negative evidence
> isn't
> > exaclty reliable, if "the" Argrath had won AWB
> over to
> > his side, I'd have expected CHDP to say so. Just
> the
> > way AWB is ignored from then on is suspicious, to
> me.
>
> <devil's_advocate>What do you mean "ignored"? The
> whole story is about him! He's Argrath, after
> all!</devil's_advocate>

If he is, then yes, fine. But I can find no specific mention of White Bull as distinguished from other Argraths after that.

> Jane, citing KoS p. 234-35:
> > "I am Arnbord, Son of Venharl, of the Karandoli
> clan
> > and the Colymar tribe. I am a poet, and I am a man
> of
> > the chief of this camp."
>
> Whoa. I never saw that before.

One of those well-hidden little snippets :) Jalk's Book, just before "Kallyr's Companions"

> What other
> Venharlssons of the Karandoli and the Colymar do we
> know? That really doesn't fit with my image of
> White Bull, Garrath, or Bad Dream.

I doubt very much whether Arnbord was an Argrath, he looks more like the bard who sings their praises. Venharl may well have had more than one son. But that places Karandoli, and Karandoli who believe themselves to be Colymar, at that, in Pavis, and calling themselves "a man of the chief of this camp" - resident there. Probably. There may be lots of other interpretations.                 



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