Re: The Trouble with Insravel

From: innerworlder2000 <innerworlder2000_at_uLnpIdtxB4vBwj7kBpDhykf-bWd0SJ5JsPPbAu9RPVlC1a6PkrXtY4EsAsB>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 04:51:40 -0000


Jeff Kyer wrote:
"However, based on various discussions, I never thought the Carminians
as Zorastoriistic. Nor was I particularly enamoured of the thought that they engage in both Light and Dark behavior. I felt that dealing with Dark is to be shunned or essayed only in the most dire or controlled circumstances."

I agree with you from "Nor was I particularly enamoured...". I don't really think of the Carmanians as being dualistic (especially from most of the descriptions I have read of the religion). For instance:

"The Invisible God created two beings to oversee the world of humans.
 Idovanus the Good God was overcome by Ganesatarus the Bad God, but since Dawn Idovanus' forces have been gaining power."

A ditheistic system ( a form of dualism) would be one in which there are only two gods: one god is creative, the other is destructive. (cf. theodicy). Some early forms of Christianity were ditheistic in the sense that many members of the church believed in a good god and an evil god. Monotheists proved through scripture that Satan was created by God (and therefore less powerful than God). In the same way, we can do this with Glorantha material.

"When the Potential of the World was fulfilled, Creator acted. Creator
made the World out of His own substance by separating that which was World from that which was Not-World and banishing the Not-World to an Other place. Sometimes we call the Not-World by its other name, Chaos. He separated The World as follows. What was before Him was Known, and behind Him was Unknown. Above was Pure, and below was Unclean. At his right hand was Straight-Truth, and at his left Bent-Deceit. He set Light at the top of the World and Darkness at the bottom and Earth in the center and Water surrounding it, and caused them to exude emanations of themselves into the World. And he made two gods to oversee the World, one of Dark and one of Light, Ganesatarus and Idovanus. Ganesatarus was born first and Idovanus second, and so must light always follow darkness."

We can clearly see from this passage that one god created Idovanus and Ganestartarus (so they are not as powerful as the One god). Therefore, the religion is clearly monotheistic, no matter how hard anyone tries to say it isn't. The fact that many common people of Glorantha think it is dualistic doesn't change the fact that for GMs and for priest characters, the religion is truly monotheistic. Too much material has already been published on this subject for authors to change their minds. If they wanted the Carmanians to have a dualist religion it is too late, no matter how you cut the cake.

Zoroastrianism is not considered to be a dualistic theology. It is considered to be one of the earliest monotheistic beliefs. Look at the following passage from Wikipedia:

"Zoroastrianism is considered to be one of the earliest monotheistic
beliefs, but the Zoroastrian definition of monotheism is neither comparable nor compatible with the monotheism of other religions that - in addition to being monotheistic - are also monist. In Zoroaster's revelation, Ahura Mazda is a transcendental and universal God, the one uncreated Creator (standard appellation) and to whom all worship is ultimately directed. However, Zoroaster also perceives Mazda to be wholly good, and that His creation is wholly good. In conflict with creation is anti-creation, evident in the created world as decay and disorder. Since anti-creation is purely destructive it cannot have been created (otherwise it would self-destruct) and hence must - like the Creator himself - be uncreated.

In the Gathas, Zoroaster does not acknowledge any divinity other than Ahura Mazda. However, the hymns of Indo-Iranian religious tradition (of which the Gathas are a part) are always addressed to a specific divinity and those closely associated with Him, and in this sense the Gathas are not (necessarily) a denial of the other divinities, but the exhaltation of a specific one. Although not mentioned by name (in the Gathas, [Ahura] Mazda is itself an epithet, not yet a proper name), Zoroaster implicitely acknowledges the existance of other Ahuras
"Lords", as in "thou who art the mightiest Ahura and the Wise (Mazda)
One" (Yasna 33.11). In addition to these lords that are "worthy of worship" (yazata), Zoroaster also refers to the daevas as the 'wrong' gods, or 'false' gods, or gods 'that should not be worshipped' and whose followers are to be brought onto the path of righteousness. In later Zoroastrian tradition, the daevas are demons, but this is not yet evident in the prophet's own poetry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism

>From this you can see that it is not the number of Gods worshipped that make a religion dualistic. It is the number of gods that existed in the beginning that make it monotheistic, dualistic, or polytheistic. If only one god existed in the beginning, the religion is monotheistic. If two gods have existed side by side since the beginning, it is dualistic, if many gods existed side by side since the beginning, it is polytheistic. The belief in more than one deity or spiritual power or even the worship of more than one spiritual power does not make the religion dualistic or polytheistic (although I have heard this belief expounded in some church sermons).

However, it makes it easier (later) for Sedenya to fit into the whole thing if the religion stresses balance between two opposites.

"The Carmanian looks at the Red Moon as the Balance between Light and
Darkness as she moves both visibly and invisibly through her Seven Phases."

I think a better solution to this problem would have been to say that Carmanian religion is Montheistic, but contains moral dualism, by which Carmanians strive to reach the mean between two extremes.

Moral dualism is the belief of the coexistence (in eastern and naturalistic religions) or conflict (in western religions) between the
"benevolent" and the "malignant". Most religious systems have some
form of moral dualism - in western religions, for instance, a conflict between good and evil.

Like ditheism/bitheism moral dualism does not imply the absence of monist or monotheistic principles. Moral dualism simply implies that there are two moral opposites at work, independent of any interpretation of what might be "moral" and - unlike ditheism/bitheism - independent of how these may be represented.

Monotheist religions can have moral dualist philosophies. In addition a dualist philosophy may commend a balance between two extremes. Both Aristotle and Confucius proposed doctrines of the mean by which one could attain a balanced life. There can be great differences in philosophy even on this issue of balance.            

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