> --- Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_QK2LSsnWIJjWzmPNUeMkxawD_IpeIZ_81jFSJetdJvsr_JrPeLiaGrJrKI-MTciCXEjtmkyow5miyEsM6QE.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>> One
>> thing that seems impossible now is for whoever takes
>> Corflu to be Maniskisson. Gathering Thunder clearly
>> puts Maniskisson with Kallyr for the Sky Ship, which
>> happen no later than Dark season (OiD 9).
>
> Good point, I'd missed that. An addition since I last
> worked on this area.
>
>> The
>> attack on Corflu happens at about the same time (GT
>> 67). So, if you like Garrath as Maniskisson, he's
>> not the fellow who took Corflu and Pavis.
>
> Or he can move from one to the other pretty fast. I
> actually like the idea that at least one person does
> both Cradle and Sky Ship, since they're almost the
> same quest on different levels, but it needn't be him.
> It's probably a PC.
Hmmm not sure I agree it's impossible. The relevant quote is the "Events Elsewhere" box on page 67 of Gathering Thunder. The first paragraph starts "Later that Winter" and describes the assassination of Temertain by the Humakti. That definitely implies that the Sky ship quest ends before the winter of 1624 does. I read it as the quest ends during the winter of 1624, but I admit that is questionable, and the quest could end even earlier.
The second paragraph desribes the fall of Corflu. While it is again debatable I would read this as meaning that the fall of Corflu is *after* the death of Temertain. This is not certain, as the order could refer to receipt of the news of the events, not the order of the events themselves and Prax is further away, but I can't see why see my reading is impossible. It follows that Maniskisson could have done both. If that's what you want for your Glorantha. If you don't then it's all moot. If you argue there's not enough time to get from one place to another (which I'm not convinced is a problem - middle of Dark to middle of Storm gives him 8 weeks) he could have ridden a slyph to Prax or to the Holy Country and then via boat to Prax).
>> I don't see how Bad Dream could be the Argrath of
>> the 1620's; but then, I can't make sense of
>> Minaryth's 1629 note about the quarrel with Argrath
>> of Pavis. (Is that one sentence or two? If two, is
>> the subject "Telmori"? Or is this just a note that
>> this year had a quarrel with Argrath of Pavis?)
>
> Let's check wording.
> "1629 — We kill Dinacoli. Queen Kallyr marries at
> last. Telmori promise revenge, quarrel with Argrath of
> Pavis."
>
> All depends on what that comma means: and relying on
> details of puncutation in a hand-written document is
> risky. And are any of those three statements related
> by more than having happened in the same year? I can't
> tie it to the CHDP account at all.
No, because the CHDP wants to make it look like Kallyr wasn't alive in 1629, so skirts over such things.
>> Jane:
>>> He starts as on her side, at least: the others did
>>> not. And although working from negative evidence
>> isn't
>>> exaclty reliable, if "the" Argrath had won AWB
>> over to
>>> his side, I'd have expected CHDP to say so. Just
>> the
>>> way AWB is ignored from then on is suspicious, to
>> me.
>>
>> <devil's_advocate>What do you mean "ignored"? The
>> whole story is about him! He's Argrath, after
>> all!</devil's_advocate>
>
> If he is, then yes, fine. But I can find no specific
> mention of White Bull as distinguished from other
> Argraths after that.
I don't think this is conclusive. The CHDP is a political document. And would therefore happily ignore anybody else within any soprt of claim to the title "liberator" if it could.
Somebody (was it Peter? I seem to have lost the email - my apologies if it wasn't) sais that Maniskisson couldn't be Garrath because Maniskisson is on the Sky Ship quests while Garrath is gadding about with the wolf pirates. While we are pretty certain, from the cradle, that Garrath did travel with the wolf pirates for atime, I think our knowledge of exactly how long that was is pretty shaky. Yes, the Saga's southern version (only) says three years, but we know not to rely too much on the saga. So when he came back from being a pirate is open to debate.
I think the whole appearance of Argrath Maniskisson in Gathering Thunder is extremely interesting. He appears in three places. One of those in an optional appearance in the Grazelander scenario (p.23). Two are mentions in the Sky Ship, where he is mentioend amonst the prominent rebel leaders (and agents of Kallyr) on p.49 and as accompanying Kallyr when she meets the Grazers (p.51). Interstingly all the leaders on page 49, except Argrath and Orlaront, where detailed in OiD. We know very little about these two. And I find it highly unlikely that Argrath happens to be Argrath's given name. They weren't on the scene in OiD. What have they done in the meantime or what have they done elsewhere to be "prominent rebel leaders"?
He is not mentioned by name after that, but I think it can be assumed that any time the adventure refers to the leaders doing something he is included. Particularly when Kallyr's party goes into the dragon.
So who is this Argrath Maniskisson? I suspect it is whoever the GM wants him to be. Could be Garrath, could be some one else.
I draw your attention to something else: the list of Kallyr's agents on p.49
Minaryth Purple
Orlastor Spearlord
Gernu and Dernu
Orlaront Dragonfriend
Orngerin Thundercape
Argrath Maniskisson
Counting Gernu and Dernu as one, that's six. Add Kallyr you get seven. Now look at the description of the dragonrising on P.153 of KoS "everyone saw not a cloud, but seven stars, all orange, spralling inward through the ceremony" and a little further down "the seven cut their spiral design across the dance"
Coincidence? Well, yes probably, but what a useful coincidence. You could, if you wanted, have those seven (Kallyr plus the listed six) as the seven. We know Minaryth was one anyway. And it allows you, if you want, to have Argrath Maniskisson at the Dragonrising.
Michael
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