>--- Paul King <paul_at_HpERmr_DSYzbRXHBxbSarl0_W8SwsEnyB9QlBHXoBS--dKL3v5NvdcE1b5GyxIVQRobfBSIEsXPYXSyaS7ia.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>> I'm not so sure about that - I got the impression
>> that they weren't that symmetric.
>
>Same here. I don't know much about Nandan (does
>anyone?) but "the birthing man" implies that his
>entire "purpose" is to give birth.
Well ST describes him as the housekeeper and says he can't bear children. I've always interpreted "the birthing man" as "male midwife". A taboo role for men in many societies in spite of the fact that a typical herdsman has almost identical skills.
Interestingly his mythological origin is when Vinga took all the tribe's women away to war. Which implies an Esrolian origin as I don't think any Sartarite tribe has that high a proportion of Vingans.
>> If a Vingan is a woman who wants to occupy a male
>> role, while a Nandani is a man who wants to be a
>> woman then they might handle it differently.
>
>(nods). A Vingan isn't necessarily even as generic as
>"a woman who wants to occupy a male role" - Vinga is a
>warrior, not (for instance) a ploughman.
That reflects the fact that in Heortling society every man has to be prepared to fight both other clansmen and to defend the clan. The only exception I can find is Gustbran who is more valuable making weapons than taking a place in the fyrd. So being a fighter is a pre-requisite for a Vingan in Sartar.
>I'm not sure
>what route *is* open to a woman who wants to be a
>ploughman. Quite possibly none - I gather that
>low-tech ploughing requires weight and strength, and
>you can't make up for the lack of them by brains and
>nerve, like you can with fighting. Sure, they can
>still get the ploughing done if they have to, just
>badly :(
Most men in Sartar aren't ploughmen either. You've got to be rich enough to own at least a share in a plough and ox team. Carls will generally do their own ploughing until they've taught one of their sons to do so. By which time they're getting old to do the job. I suspect there are some poor clans which don't plant grain at all because they have no carls. It's a desirable but not essential part of their diet.
>A woman who wants to father children? Tricky. Unlike
>strength and weight, the ability to father children is
>on/off. But then I doubt if there's any mythic need
>for it, in Glorantha. A group of women with no men
>*can* produce children - the Earth Tribe seem to
>manage parthogenesis.
Do they? I haven't seen any myth which clearly refers to birth without a father although there are plenty when the father is unclear or not mentioned. I suspect if it's possible it involves a HQ to the Green Age before male and female were defined.
>Men with no women have a
>problem, to which Nandan is the solution.
>
>Where that leaves men who want to perform a female
>role while remaining male, I'm not sure. It probably
>depends on which female role we're talking about.
Some of the subcults of Ernalda are also subcults of other gods. Skovara has a brother Skovari and I expect Pella also has a brother. These are male members of the earth tribe so will be regarded as strange in Orlanthi society. The largest proportion of Ernaldan subcults though are connected to fertility and I don't see it possible for a male to access them other than though Nandan.
>> So it might be the case that a Vingan wanting to
>> perform a female
>> task might turn to Ernalda, while a Nandani wanting
>> to perform a male task might turn to Vinga.
>
>Looks like Vinga does female household tasks rather
>than male ones, when she's not fighting.
>"During this time, Vinga stayed at home to learn from
>her female kin. She joined the Weaver Women in the
>Loom House, and was as adept in the arts of the hearth
>and stead as she was at fighting. She even made their
>same old tasks easier one day when she measured out
>fields for her mother and sisters by hurling her
>javelin exactly one mile from each marker rock."
This strikes me as extremely odd. Why are women regularly measuring fields? What use is a mile long field? The normal length of a field in pre-industrial times was a furlong. Originally a "furrow long" and defined as the distance a ploughman and ox team could pull a plough without pausing to rest. So yes, it varied depending on the soil and type of plough rather than being one eighth of a mile.
Then again this is a quote from the mythology of Vinga, which may not reflect how Vingans actually operate in the mortal world.
ST Pg. 174 has under Initiate 'Whatever the male worshippers do Vingans do also. In most cases, whenever the Orlanth cult says "men only" it actually means "men and Vingans only"'.
And under Subcults of Vinga 'In addition to Vinga's personal subcults, initiates and devotees may join any aspect or subcult of Orlanth. In practice, most Vingans join Thunder Brothers subcults....'.
So yes, an Orlanthi all Vingans will primarily be fighters of some sort with fighting magic. That will explain why most do women's work when not fighting - those are the skills they learnt before becoming Vingans and without specialising they won't learn the men's ones.
-- Donald Oddy http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/
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