Thanks for taking the time to put this togther: its very insightful. While anything 'abstract' can send some folk screaming for the hills faster than a krashkid at a Storm Bull temple bash ('Run!' 'Raiders?' 'No... the real world!' 'Argh!' 'Sex?' 'Worse..ideology!' RUN!!!!) , if we can tie the insights into our games and characters and into our own shaping then it can make for a better understandng of Glorantha and our games. And Greg's Heortling Glorantha certainly has its own ideology, its own idiosyncratic approach to issues like sex and gender.
> This is complicated in Orlanthi society by the fact of theism. In Orlanthi style theism, a God picks you, and you are the way you are because of the actions of the God.
>
I'm also putting together a response directly relating to the recent Vinga discussion, which I hope to post later this weekend, but let me add a few more tidbits to the mix.
The Storm realm is a MALE realm. There is only one 'common' Storm Goddess, Brastalos and she is No-Wind. This alone should activate our radars when thinking about Vinga. (Earth is less fussy, and male earth gods are more common).
Heortling gender roles are extremely conservative. its important to note that they are NOT presented as cultural constructs or adaptations but as being ordained and controlled BY THE GODS, and by the human-god contract that makes Heortlings part of the tribe of Storm and Earth. It is difficult and dangerous to move out of these gender or career roles , it takes a distortion of the 'natural' order. It takes major cult magic. Compare this to the Lunar way, where a woman taking an 'active' profession is quite simple, and the Solar way, where we don't even think about it. :)
There seems to be a major gender equation for the Heortlings: Storm Acts, Earth endures. To put it in binary terms
MALE : STORM : ACTION :: FEMALE : EARTH : ENDURANCE (Male is to Storm is to action as Female is to Earth is to endurance, and these are seen as cultural oppositions.)
There have been major ructions in the past over this: when the gendered nature of Heortling society was first laid out, when Nandan was revealled then changed, then I think, slowly changed back, and now when Vinga is a sort of a guy and maybe into same sex in a big way. Some folk see these constructions as conservative and essentialist - certainly it can be tough to get women interested in a Heortlng campaign. Ernalda, in practical terms, often gets ignored (sadly), but that's mainly because rpg campaigns largely consist of hitting things. And as Greg himself often states,YGWV. Any myth is multivalent, and can point beyond itself, and the way people struggle against ideologies is often more interesting than the ideologies themselves. What interests me however, is the nature of the model Greg is using, and why he has chosen this mode of mythic expression. I'd like to understand it a bit better.
> I think it of `high crown' to understand that Vinga and Nandan are gateway gods, first and foremost – they allow individuals of one sex to take on the social roles of another gender.
For Vinga especially, the dual role of Gateway and profession (explicitly hearthguard, which I distinguish from warrior) confuses the situation. There is lots of cultic variation too - regionally, historically, and the fact that Vinga can be a temporary cultus. As a mediatrix between male and female realms, Vinga is also a liminal (dangerous, 'out of place') figure, suffering from widely different biases and expectations. The two main views of the cult WITHIN Heortling society are what i call the view from the hall (the male, chiefly, professional warrior, Storm view of Vinga) and the view from the hearth (the female, kin, clan, hearthguard, earth view of Vinga). These can be significantly different, and vingans themselves may share one or the other perspective, or attempt to balance them,or change from one to the other over time.
> More significantly, one expects those chosen by Heler to switch back and forth between gendered social roles – something seen as suspect, I believe, in Orlanthi society.
>
Heler reminds us that there is great subtlety to greg's mythic structuring of Heortling society, and that we need to examine it more closely.
> In the same way, I think we can expect that many, if not most Vingans practice same-sex sexual behavior.
>
Here I disagree on the 'most', though I certainly accept the point you're making. Casual sex, sure - the Orlanthi are really only concerned about incest when it comes to casual sex - het or hom - and even this is often unacknowledged if its teenage experimentation or doesn't interfere with marriage matchmaking, which is what the clan is all about. The 'any temple on a holy day' maxim applies to everyone if your not married. But lets not forget the general air of restraint and conservatism that is the mark of Orlanthi society: they're not Pelorians. (Incidently we know from Greg's ' How She Became Her' that the Red Goddess is bisexual, and as a motif for new experiences and new ways, this makes perfect mythic sense. But is anyone suggesting that Lunar characters should all be trying to double their chances of a date on Wildday night?)
I'll natter on a bit more about this soon.
Cheers
John
john_at_OALhzawcn9vN8N-33RjScVpg5KaD-XvBX3kPAx0Iu2fgOQnWse6195Vzuv174EBMEaXuHwTjCcYCvw.yahoo.invalid John HughesMythologic: http://mythologic.info
"There was a muddy centre before we breathed.
There was a myth before the myth began,
Venerable and articulate and complete.
>From this the poem springs: that we live in a place
That is not our own and, much more, not ourselves,
And hard it is in spite of blazoned days."
Wallace Stevens. "Notes Towards A Supreme Fiction"
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