>--- In WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com, Peter Metcalfe
><metcalph_at_...> wrote:
> > Having a chaotic feature is pretty much an objective
> > test of being a chaotic.
>
>It's not a cast iron certainty though.
Then provide an example of a chaotic without a chaotic feature. Failing that provide an example in glorantha where one culture claims something is chaotic and another culture does not.
>Nor is it a useful definition for Gloranthans, since not every
>chaotic feature is necessarily obvious as such.
It doesn't matter whether the condition is necessarily obvious for it to be objective. Cancer is not necessarily obvious in many cases yet it is still an objective condition. Furthermore people seem to be confused with between what is known about (or can be said about) a phenomenon and the phenomenon itself. That different cultures have different ideas about what a phenomenon is does not affect in the slightest anything about that phenomenon.
>However Malia is generally accepted as being
>"sometimes chaotic"
The chaoticness of Malia is not a matter of subjective perception. There are two cults of Malia - one worshipped by the Broos and one worshipped by the general population of secrets. The cult of the Broos is chaotic, the human cult is not.
That Malia is both chaotic and non-chaotic is an interesting philosophical issue but one that does not in anyway prove the supposed subjectivity of chaos.
>and you have thrown doubt on whether Krasht
>counts (and I'd guess the Orlanthi would certainly claim that she
>does).
In case people are still having problems with understanding what I suggested about Krarsht, I shall offer a concise summary.
Krarsht is a version of Arachne Solara worshipped originally
in Pamaltela.
When the Gods War came, Krarsht appeared in Genertela.
Being seen as Alien, she was stomped on by Larnste.
This created a rift in the cosmos through which chaos
entered.
Although Larnste rejected chaos, Krarsht did not. She
sought to control it as she seeks to control everything
else.
Thus Krarsht's worship and her Krarshtkids in Genertela
are _tainted_ with chaos in the same way that the
Telmori are. They are not intrinsically chaotic but
the taint is detectable and used as evidence that Krarsht
is a chaos cult.
Relevance to the supposed subjectivity of chaos: none.
>Then there are the creatures that followed the devil (that Jeorg
>called "Wakboths New Model Chaos")
Except that the Devil is, by and large, a God Learner construct woven together out of many different destruction myths. Ogres, Broos, Scorpionfolk and Vampires were all chaotic long before the God Learners and some chaotic creatures may not have even followed a evil destroying god in the great darkness.
For instance the Vadeli willingly collaborated with all these creatures during the Great Darkness but they do not register as chaotic.
>- Bagog and the Scorpion Men, Thed
>and the Broo, Cacodemon and the Ogres, Vivamort et al - These seem,
>at least to me as beings of a different sort of Chaos.
Different than what?
>In a sort of
>circular definition they are Chaotic because they followed the Devil,
>and they followed the Devil because they were Chaotic.
I disagree they are chaotic because they followed the Devil. There is a clear definition of chaos given in Cults of Terror - a passionate and psychic refusal to obey the moral laws of the Cosmos. This state of awareness was first achieved in the Storm Age and lead to the horrors of the Great Darkness.
>(And we don't
>even have a single definition of the Devil as both Wakboth and
>Kajabor go under the title) - but we know little of the Devil, since
>he was defeated in Godtime and devoured by Arachne Solara.
According to Orlanthi myth. Does anybody else believe that? That Malkioni believe that Zzabur cast a big spell which returned the world to life. The Yelmite mythology knows of no struggle with the Devil or Arachne Solara - they do know that some miserable rebels killed themselves as an apology but whether the rebels were Orlanthi or Broo is immaterial. The Pelandan myth has GanEstoro being slain by Idojartos but he's not really devoured by a spider afterwards.
> (So if Thed were worshipped anywhere (presumably
>where the Greater Darkenss was not as well known) as Mother of the
>Broo, but not Mother of the Devil, would those Broo be non-chaotic?).
Thed's runes are chaos and spirit. She cannot be worshipped in a non-chaotic form. The Broos are intrinsically chaos because of their reproductive nature. Feral Broos have no contact with Thed or any other deity yet are just as chaotic as wild broos.
>They generally accepted theory appears to be that these Chaotic
>creatures that arose in the great darkness were beings/races that
>turned to the old (pre-dark) chaos powers to help them survive -
>which does suggest they should be able to, on a personal level,
>reject chaos (eg "The Cleansed One" or the Wild healer of the
>Rockwood Mountains
The Cleansed One has never been demonstrated to work and the Wild Healer cannot rejected chaos - he is a chaotic broo worshipper of Chalana Arroy. He may be nice to meet with and clean but that does not alter his nature.
> - Of course persuading anyone else that you are a
>non-chaotic and perfectly civilised Scorpion Man may prove difficult
I've never heard of a non-chaotic Scorpion Man before. Their reproductive nature is clearly chaotic.
>Finally there are the "Chaos Tainted" races - Telmori, cursed by
>Talor for their support of Gbaji, Romal (Cave Trolls) too, though I
>don't recall what is the cause of their taint. I'd guess that these
>"lesser" chaotic races are ones that have arisen "In Time"?
Cave Trolls were tainted by chaos during the Great Darkness and ditto for Sea Trolls.
> Walktapus I'd put in with the
>"Pre-dark" chaos along with Gorp and Dragonsnails,
Dragonsnails are parts of the Devil according to what's known about them. Predark chaos should be primal chaos monstrosities rather than corruptions of natural creatures like the Walktapus and the Dragonsnails.
>while Jack-o-bear
>I'd guess arose from the actions of their ancestors in the Great
>Darkness.
I think Jack-o-bear was created during the Gbjai Wars by the elf followers of hungry jack.
--Peter Metcalfe
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