Re: Heortling social structure and wergeld confusion

From: Greg Stafford <Greg_at_pHrKzyt-_KTIUbPTpibqikMcn5t9YZ6ghbwuUmGYuIEHluCfx76ib_eFZ9kIn70-92Wyfju>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:56:39 -0700


YGWV I?ve been having some serious email problems lately and have been unable to respond to anything on this list. I managed to pluck this out, and will respond.

Quoting valkoharja <rintasaa_at_99CF5P3CkYrKuiZPdn8GrP1ufElM7JoPfhijPiJ5lShneCxl1UchAn2vh6F4HC1vtEtFbuIPb0ID9LQg.yahoo.invalid>:

> After decades of roleplaying in Glorantha, and some excellent source
> books, I still find it hard to figure out how the social structure of
> the Heortlings is supposed to go.

I am often amused, bemused and abused by the fact that my work is dubbed, and sometimes scorned, as being anthropological. And then a smart guy like Adept shines a light on it and reveals that it isn?t. *sigh* Can?t please everyone.

> The most clear inspiration seems to be the viking / saxon model.

Correct. Modified, of course.

> In the saxon model a thegn (thane) is a warrior noble, like a knight
> in classic feodalism. He owns land a defends it with his warriors. The
> thegns own fealty to their lord.
>
> "Saxons!" says
> "...Each must own at least five hides (of land); enough land to
> support a full-time warrior. A tegn should have armor, helmet, sword,
> shield and several spears. He may know how to ride a horse, but he
> does his fighting on foot..."
>
> The common class of free men is that of ceorl (carl). Craftsmen and
> farmers, who form the fyrd. In the heortling society this class if
> further divided into the wealthier carls and the poorer cottars.
> Othervice it's quite similar.

Being unable to access the plethora of response to Adept?s email, I am not sure if RR has responded to this. And I am not sure if this was so written to fit into the Pendragon format. I myself do not recall anything I?ve read hat requires a thegn to hold five hydes of land.
Although there may, in fact, be multiple examples in the Doomsday Book to support this.

> The HeroQuest material get's rather confusing with it's emphasis on
> clan ownership of land, and the way it doesn't really explain how the
> settlements are situated on a clan's tula.
>
> My suggestion is this:
>
> On a clan's tula, there are several fortified "villages".

Village, hamlet, stead. More or less roughly equivalent, with that sequence indicating the general diminishment in sizes. But a village can be called a stead, and a farm might be called a village. Not all are always fortified, but in these days, most are.

> Each of
> these is the demesne of a thane. The thane keeps several huscarls in
> his hall, and is rides patrols on his/her lands.

Not in my Glorantha.
Thane is a social rank, and a thane generally heads a stead. But they are not responsible for the defense of the stead. Of course, a thane is usually trained in martial arts and will naturally defend his stead from intruders, if he can.
Riding patrol is the duty of the clan warband. Thanes are also appointed by the clan chief to head important clan functions, such as the dishthane (looks after the ?treasure?), the foodthane (oversees food), and so on. If there is a special function of the clan there might be a minethane, a fishing thane, etc. People who are supported by the labor of others are appointed by the chiefs as well, hence there are weapon thanes (also called synonymously spearthane or swordthanes). One of them is the clan champion, and he or another heads the clan warband.

> The thane and his
> huscarls usually have their personal warrior followers picked from
> among the carls.

Every stead/village has its fyrd members, who will defend heir homes against intruders, as much as possible and under the leadership of the resident thane. Some of these warrior carls are more skilled than others, and more likely to fight than others.

> The greatest of these villages is the one ruled by
> the chieftain of the clan. The chieftains hall is the largest, and
> houses many huscarls and other companions.

The stead of the chieftain is almost always the largest in the clan. It is often called a town, and has many residents not found in the usual village. For instance, the redsmith is there, a full time carpenter and probably a full time cooper. If the clan has specialists It also probably is the site for the clan temple, or at least the full time priests and priestesses (since the temple is often that grove nearby, or that hilltop over there.) The biggest market is here as well.

> The villages are defended with various levels of defensive works
> like palisades and picket fences, and the longhouses are arranged to
> provide more defense. The chieftains village is usually the most
> heavily defended, and usually houses the most important temples and
> shrines, as well as the central market. In addition to the villages,
> the demesnes of the thanes have many outlying farms and settlements.

Yes, probably. And shielings, charcoal burner houses, hunting lodges, etc.

> The thanes tend to be the heads of bloodlines, and their villages are
> usually populated by their immediate kin.

A tiny correction: The heads of bloodlines tend to be thanes. Their immediate kin probably live there, their other more distant kin as well, people of related (in-law) kin groups, and people with no significant bloodline affiliations (usually poor, cottars and servants). Foreigners are extremely rare.

> ***
> In addition to thanes, chiefs and kings, the Glorantha source material
> makes references to "nobles". I guess one could use the term jarl, to
> go with cottar, carl and thane.

I think thanes would classify as nobles as well. Compare with the fact that knights are nobles, albeit the lower class of nobles. So would clan chiefs, and of course jarls and kings. Jarls are a class of noble above that of thanes. It is generally granted by tribal kings. It is not entirely incorrect to think of it as a tribal title. The term is ambiguously applied. The Heortlings/Orlanthi do not have rigid classifications for these. Not all chiefs are jarls, for instance. I do think that all jarls would also be thanes.

> The problem here is that I haven't
> been able to figure out what these nobles are supposed to be. Members
> of the clan ring are not necessarily thanes in the sense of being
> warrior landowners.

First, not all thanes are warrior landholders (note-not land_owners_).

> What is their position, and what is their weregeld,

I?m not looking this up, so I do not have the exact numbers for weregelds. Someone can quickly remind me?is it not 6x the annual average income? And then there is a multiple for arising social classes.

> and who is it to be payed to?

His kin. Always.

> ***
> On the wergeld. What is the position of a child of a thane, or even
> the child of a chieftain.

Nothing. Children don?t count.

> If the person is an adult, but hasn't really
> accomplished anything yet. Is that person a cottar, a carl or a thane
> when it comes to wergeld?

What job does he do? What is his family?s status? The son or daughter of a thane is one rank lower = carl. The son or daughter of a carl is one rank lower = cottar. However, these too are ambiguous and the courts would determine what the actual value is. It could be modified by the popularity of the individual, by the presumed future income, by the relationship, etc.

> How much do such things mean when one is far
> from home? If a thane get's captured, injured or killed when far from
> his home, how much does his/her social rank mean?

Nothing. He is a stranger. If his kin show up to force a lawsuit to collect weregeld or damages, then suddenly it does mean something. What?s it mean? Whatever the visiting kin can enforce.

> Is the only effect
> that a rich person is more likely to be ransomed back to his/her own
> clan, where a poor person is just made into a thrall?

That is certainly one common effect.

> I have a few potential problems in my game. One character is a young
> esrolian goldentongue. The family is very rich,

Wealth is not necessarily significant to affect weregeld, but more like a modifier. A wealthy carl is something like 1.5x a normal carl. So start with that as his weregeld.

> and the characters
> aunt is the dishthane of one of the queens of Nochet.

Oh, this is about Esrolia? This could be entirely different!

> What is the
> social status of such a goldentongue?

I?m going to continue as if it was Orlanthi society.

> He represents his bloodline and clan as a trader, but I guess he's
> not a thane himself.

He is the chief merchant/trader for the clan? That probably IS worth a thane level.

> I guess the
> most important social aspect of him is being a godi of Issaries (since
> traders are not a respected profession as such).

Godar are generally a rank above their expected weregeld level. Thus if a godar is from a carl family, his weregeld ranks as a thane. So this guy is thane weregeld x 1.5.

NOW, THE ESROLIAN ASPECT?
He?s a man, so his value is diminished. How much? I don?t know, some. Say, equivalent of being poor. So ½ of a thane. He works for a Queen!? Double the value, at least.

> Another character is a daughter of Yinkin, a young demigod. What is
> the status and wergeld of such a person

Oh, if she is in her own land, and her status as a child of a god is know, I?d say about x10 normal.

> when she accompanies the
> trader's caravan to see the world.

Outside of her lands her value diminishes. Who will pay for her weregeld, her ransom? Her kinfolk, far far away? And the captors know her value? It?s that x10 again, of course.

> Her clan is a hunter oriented one,
> high in the foothills of the stormwalk mountains. She is the adopted
> daughter of the chief of the clan. What is her status, and what is her
> wergeld?

Hunter clans are generally poorer than farming ones, so everything is halved from farmer level.
Daughter of the chief probably rich carl status. (Adopted or natural is irrelevant)
Child of a god = x10.

Sorry to have taken so long to put my oar in the water on this one. Please, everyone, sacrifice a black rooster to the computer gods for me.



Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
c/o Greg Stafford            

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