In message <f0l8al+arlp_at_eGroups.com <f0l8al%2Barlp%40eGroups.com>> "Greg Stafford" writes:
> >I am not sure what you mean by "significantly different lifestyle,"
> >but I would say that thanes and cottars DO have significantly
> > >different lifestyles far beyond the belt buckles.
> >
> >Thanes are leaders, and their primary responsibility is not in hard
> >labor. They are leaders, organizers, communicators and decision
> >makers.
>
> Agreed they are the decision makers but it's definitely "hands on"
> management.
Yes. But they still live a better lifestyle than a carl, and significently better than a cottar.
> Given that a typical stead has about 60-70 adults
> (half women) and two thanes (a married couple) they are more like
> foremen than managers. The way I see it a thane is a successful
> carl who is respected by the clansfolk. He's rewarded by a few
> luxuries and various items of status such as a box bed rather
> than a pile of furs on a bench.
Depends on th definiton of "a few." Box bed, nice furniture, better clothing, jewelry, better food.
Most importantly: status and respect.
> I have a query over the thane's wife automatically being the leader
> of the women. Marrying a competent man doesn't necessarily mean she
> is competent herself. Maybe the thane's wife has the title but
> not necessarily the authority.
Agreed. But he's the boss, and she's his wife. Or perhaps, she's the boss and he's her husband.
And they will still go to the specialistis for leadership on special tasks.
> >Cotters, especially, have a difficult life of gardening to feed their
> >families (no plows for these guys), manual labor, etc.
>
> I'm not sure the cotter's work is any harder than the carl's, it
> is just less productive and possibly less valued.
Less productive = the same work for less food.
"More cabbage, less bread."
> >> All Orlanthi are fighters so they
> >> don't need protecting by a warrior nobility. The huscarls the
> >> chief appoints and supports are the few full time warriors but
> >> don't have any special status because of this.
> >
> >I disagree. See my other post, but these guys are weaponthanes--a
> >VERY special status.
>
> Except that there are *more* huscarls than there are other
> thanes even using your figures (below). It makes for a very
> militaristic society if all full time warriors have equal status
> to the leaders of the farmers. However if "thane" translates as
> "leader" then "weaponthane" will be that subset of huscarls who
> have proved their ability to lead as well as fight.
Thane does not translate as "leader." Thane is a social class whose membes do not have to work the fields to survive, or engage in some other labor (potter, carpentry, smithing, etc.)
Weapon thanes are not leders—they are the guys who risk their lives in dangerous work so hat others may live in peace. This doesn't give them the right to be bosses. But it does provide a certain status and respect that is admired by the people who live in a dangerous world.
> >> Since a typical clan is about 1200 including children you are
> >> talking about supporting maybe 50-60 full time warriors.
> >
> >At maximum! 10% warrior class is pretty high. I would suggest a 10%
> >of all non-laboring people, of which half would be warriors. The
> >others are specialists, priests, leaders, etc. So I'd say 25-30 full
> >time warriors in a clan.
>
> It is possible for a society to support up to 10% of the population
Sure it is. But normally, I calculate it to be about 5%.
> as warriors although that may be beyond the magic/technology
> level of the Heortlings which is why I went for half that. It
> assumes a rather militaristic society but that's not incompatable
> with the Orlanthi and does provide the numbers to fight the Lunars.
When they fight the Lunars you are also seeing many fyrdmen in the count.
--
Greg Stafford
Game Designer
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