Re: Palmaltela, grass, bad days & list question

From: jorganos <joe_at_UH1ZR_HFXPZKSS40mTa7vav9AUphaHvYbViYgsTYX00nRKFMssQy0tJYsZVbof0Oqst0BDwo>
Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:25:31 -0000


Me:
>>A mythically important fact is that the Doraddi are descended from a >>pure hunter culture.

Peter:
> Debatable.

Evidently... :)

The Doraddi (in the sense of "Pamaltelans living the life and death exemplified by Dorad, the first Agi-mor to die") have a myth about being created in a land of fire. Their myth about the creation of plants is that of the medicine plants.

Their myths say they hunted before they say they were drinking.

>>Their mythology has the plants descended from the
>>first humans who died, indicating a purely carnivorous mythical
>>existance before Death came.

> Except that in the Doraddi mythology, Bolongo's murder of
> Earthmaker precedes the creation of humanity.

Maybe I should have said Mortality came.

Look, I know that there is no scientifically tenable way for the Agimori or their prey to have existed without plants, unless they subsisted on the pure fire (energy). Not entirely impossible.

Sandy's Pamaltela RQ campaign had an encounter with spirits that were non-regenerating lumps of magic points, remnants from a very early age.

> The list of the Fiwan, who have been around ever since
> Pamalt awoke, contains several creatures which are
> herbivores, such as the Milk Antelope.

True today. Not necessarily true at the time of their creation.

> That was for the Creation Period. Now comes the Old
> People period.

> There is the Tree War in which Pamalt fights the
> Jungle and then comes the Agi.

Balumbasta raises the Fensi range, and locks out the jungle. Quite possibly he burns whatever else went into "our world".

>>The Men-and-a-Half of Prax still have a >>diet mainly consisting of meat, with plants only an afterthought.

> Which is primarily an adaptation to the place where they
> live rather than being an ancestral diet unchanged since mythic
> times, one thinks.

The place where they originated may well have been similar. Tarien still is. (lacking grass, of course...)

>>This gets us to the question how the Doraddi cities worked. IMO the
>>Doraddi attitude to cities is similar to that of the Orlanthi - while
>>far from intrinsic to their way of life, cities are possible when the
>>circumstances are right and slight changes to that way of life are made.

> Except that the Doraddi live in Kothar

Doraddi describes the culture of mortal humans following Pamalt, not just a portion thereof.

> and have a tradition of
> settled life (stemming from the ancient land of Tishamto).

They did not start out living in cities. Yes, by the time there were cities in Tishamto, they had a tradition of settled life. The immortal Agimori created by the Great Spirits were not urban, though. Neither appear the First Drinkers to have lived a settled life before the death of Dorad.

> Using the attitudes
> of the Agimori of Jolar - the Arbennan - as a guide for cities is
> like using the Hrestoli as a guide for the Rokari.

Wrong, since the Rokari are not ancestors of the Hrestoli. Rather, like using the Loskalmi as a guide for the Enrovalini of Danmalastan.

Simply look at the book Genesis, Cain and Able: the Hebrew God places Able's animal sacrifice over Cain's grain sacrifice, because they are descended from pastoralists rather than sedentary farmers.

The deep origin of a culture will influence certain flavours of a culture.

>>The
>>great capital city of the Doraddi was situated on the shore of the
>>Nargan Sea, on a major river mouth.

> I don't see where the river comes from and calling it a capital
> presumes a government organization over the whole of Tishamto
> that we have no evidence for. After all Tishamto may have grown
> its food within its city borders.

I suggested that that was the plan. Frankly, I don't know of a single city anytime anywhere which managed to feed itself from within its city borders. Food always is imported, and non-food goods are exchanged for it.

>>It appears to have functioned only
>>by taking tribute from the hinterland, a situation similar to the
>>non-Kresh Doraddi of Kothar nowadays.

> I don't see the evidence for either. The Doraddi settlements
> don't take tribute from their nomadic counterparts - they
> trade.

You got me wrong: the nomadic Kresh wagon cities take tribute from the sedentary (and presumably also the migratory) Doraddi of Kothar. They trade, too.

>>Perhaps the Kresh reanimated part of the culture of that ancient city?

> The Kresh are nomads.

Pushing and drawing their wheeled cities along.

>>The Pamaltelan veldt may be lush compared to Prax and the Wastes,
>>but presumably the plants worth cultivation require more than 
>>nature is willing to offer them to thrive.

> There are patches of wild grasses

Exactly: Grasses. Something the Veldt has a distinct lack of.

> in Turkey that don't require cultivation yet can be
> harnessed to provide grain. All that requires
> for transplantation in glorantha is growing magic.

No debate there - that's how Genertela works. And what the God Learners failed to introduce south of the Fensi chain.

If the Veldt offers such plants in sufficient quantity to support large populations, then why are there oasis settlements?

>>The "best plants" of the Veldt are those that grow on the graves of >>the ancestors.

> AFAIK these plants are for medicinal and religious purposes
> rather than food crops.

In Esrolia, grain has great religious importance, and grain beer has been known to be used for medicinal and magical purposes, too. Just because something is sacred doesn't mean that it cannot be food at the same time. It needs to be consumed with respect, and with ritual. (A similar case is with Hykimi living on the meat of their totem beasts as a main staple, or Praxians consuming their tribal beasts.)

Little different from a hunter culture, which treats its prey with respect, and guides it to rebirth.

And basically, all harvested plants are taken from the body of the earth. Life is consumption of the (regenerating, one can hope) body of the earth.            

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