> First, True Dragons are of the magnitude to participate in full
> scale mythological events, like fighting Orlanth.
> Those of the "next size down," commonly called dream dragons,
> I am going to call Great Dragons to differentiate them from
> True Dragons, and make it clear that I consider the label of
> "dream" to be very misleading for most people (implying for
> them that they are, therefore, somehow les
> real than that cliff over there, or the forest, or people.)
This makes "Dream Dragons" the class with a wide range of powers, from merely heroic to superhero or even ordinary deity (say Issaries or Humakt).
> Great Dragons are still so much greater than human beings that
> people often report them to be True Dragons, but they aren't.
> (Smaug in LotR would be a Great Dragon, not a True Dragon).
Would any dragon in Real World myth or fantastic literature (possibly excepting Edison's Ouroboros, who doesn't do anything in "The Worm Ouroboros") qualify?
> The True Dragons do not regularly, or even often, participate
> in worldly events.
Not any more or less than the Great Gods, right?
>> They sort of waltzed over Kralorela and eliminated the Emperor Dragon,
> Who, while in his incarnate form, is not a True Dragon.
And, judging from Obduran's performance at Tentacles, became one (or at least tried to) by his reaction on "being eliminated".
Is Yanoor's demise an example of a failed utuma?
>> Pamaltela has few mentions of draconic entities, unless you >> count the hydras and Amuron, the Horned Serpent, Creator >> of the Fiwan and the world.
> There are Pamaltelan dragons.
Both True and Great?
>> The Sea Dragons conquered by Waertag aren't quite part of >> the draconic myths in either the central Genertelan or >> Kralori versions, and certainly are not directly related >> to Thrunhin Da. This makes the West pretty poor in dragons, too.
> The dragons that were turned into Waertagi ships are not True Dragons.
> They were Great Dragons.
Can Great Dragons exist independently from True Dragons?
Can they be the result of human ascension to dragonhood? Linked to Kapertine (or a similar draconic concept) rather than the Ultimate?
[Sandy's dragon article in White Wolf]
>> (Neither can I say how canonical that article is...)
> [Lets take a moment out and try a little exercise on canon
> here: was it published by one of the licensees of the game? No.
> Was it written by me? No. So, under what category of canon
> might it qualify under?]
Published by an author closely affiliated with _the_ "licensee" of Glorantha at that time, i.e. Chaosium.
>> True Dragons being connected to the Ultimate, anywhere they >> are is by definition not a short world but a valid Otherworld >> or part of the Mundane World (i.e. a hero plane).
> I can imagine that a True Dragon could make a Short World,
> even though they are connected to the Ultimate (whatever that
> is for a dragon!)
Heck, I even have a score of scenario ideas where the dragon itself is acting as a short world/isolated portion of the Hero Plane/separate Otherworld. The dragon I was toying with was the result of an EWF dissident/experiment taking on a portion of a Dragon Pass population into awakening a dragon. Somehow (e.g. by being swallowed, possibly without even recognizing that) a group of (Third Age) adventurers taking a bad turn on some quest end up meeting a population from the EWF era.
On the other hand
This question is getting close to illumination koans like "Can an
omnipotent entity fail?"
>> Extant Dragons in central Genertela. >> Krisa Yar, the Red Dragon >> Green Dragon >> Brown Dragon / Dragon of Jarn >> Black Dragon >> are the four resident True Dragons of Dragon Pass.
> And are legitimate manifestations of True Dragons.
> I make that distinction because what is seen there is not the whole
> dragon, any more than the storm is the entirety of Orlanth.
Ok. Does this mean that Dreng was a manifestation of the Brown Dragon?
>> There is also the Sun Dragon that can be contacted in Pavis, and the
> Not a True Dragon.
> Do not make the mistake that the Sun Dragons reported by different
> people are necessarily the same creature.
Gotta reread that article in Pavis&Big Rubble...
[Genertelan Dragon]
> Peter's conclusion is correct: this is one of the Big Four in Dragon
Pass.
Not telling which one, though? ;)
> So, just as there is more than one so-called Sun Dragon,
> there are also multiple names for single entities.
> Besides the Dragonet of Dragon's Eye
> Who may or may not be a True Dragon, because he is still
> manifest. When he passes on, leaving the post to the next
> candidate, he will be a True Dragon.
This makes an interesting parallel to the Kralori Emperors.
>> (and presumably that of Ryzel, >> according to some sources, while others say that Dragon's Eye is >> unique in having a Dragonet) there are known former Inhuman Kings.
> The "inhuman king" of Ralios was destroyed in the Imperial Age.
Good to know (that's the Ormsland colony), but I was talking about Ryzel, in Maniria.
>> Killed Dragon Pass dragons include Aroka and Sh'Har'karzeel >> (in about 20 different spelling variations, including this one).
> Both of which were indeed True Dragons.
Who remained dead? (The Mover of Heavens until someone moves Orlanth's Ring in 1625? So is the Brown Dragon, the Storm Dragon, the Dragon of Jarn, our friend Sh'har'karzeel?)
>> Killed EWF Dragons include Dreng, the Diamond Storm dragon. ^
> Who, while Great, was not a True Dragon.
So the EWF dragons don't qualify at all? Would their Great Dragon Project have?
>> The Emperor Sun of Dara Happa was reported to have been killed, but
>> is said to be identical to the Sun Dragon that can be contacted in
Pavis.
>> Dead or not?
> They are not the same entity, nor were they.
> The one in Pavis is far inferior to the one that ruled Dara Happa.
So Great Dragons can act just like the physical/magical manifestations the True Dragons of Dragon Pass may choose when they interact with the Mundane World in times of myth outbreaks (aka cataclysms at the end of an age)? Including the sage-like refutation ability implied by their rules representation in the boardgames?
Back to the Pavis one: a manifestation of the Dara Happan one?
>> Kralori dragons look and behave strange
> And people in Kralorela treat them differently.
Don't fear them the way Genertelans do?
>> Did they appear as similar in shape to the four known ones >> of Dragon Pass during the Dragonkill?
> Shape is determined in large part by the observer. The Kralori dragons
> are known to be benevolent, and so they often appear in benevolent
> form--i.e.- different from the ones in Dragonkill.
I'll take that as a qualified yes, then.
>> There ought to be considerably more True Dragons than the ones I've >> listed here, or the number of six ancestral dragons would seem too high.
> The Six Ancestors should be understood as poetic expressions
> of mortal beings, not Absolute Statements.
Semi-mortal beings? Unless I'm very mistaken, this information comes from the dragonewts. Of course, recorded by humans, probably translated from Auld Wyrmish which destroys much of the context and intentions.
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