Re: Dragon's, EWF remnants and Truedragons in the rest of Genertela

From: jorganos <joe_at_SMcycO-2L_vS4iUAoR4ZqxOpQWBrwj-N1chtE5sgAFlEnQeexWY3m4BO76deCbweATwYwDuM>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:39:14 -0000


Me
>>Neither newtlings nor slarge are closer to dragonkind than odonatites.

Peter Metcalfe
> Who they?

Dragonfly timinits. (Elder Races Book)

> In any case because the newtlings can understand
> Auld Wyrmish better than anybody else, it follows they have
> some relationship regardless of whether they were devolved
> dragonewts or that dragonewts are draconized newtlings.

What follows is that newtling language (or at least newtling understanding of language) contains olfactory and possibly empathic elements that humans can't reproduce.

> I'm suggesting that the Slarges have a similar relationship
> and adduce their facility with dinosaurs (also degenerate
> draconic beings) as further evidence.

Provided those dinosaurs are degenerate draconic beings and not oversized Jraktali fiwan-descended beasts, Earth Deity Shakers or descendents of Danmalastan behemoth Golatis.

> We have a number of articles about the dragonewts
> ranging from the Dragon Pantheon to Elder Secrets but
> the amount on Slarges in terms of their own culture and
> world-view is non-existent.

Indeed: articles about dragonewts, based mistranslations from EWF sources and on observations by scholars like Ocron Everseer.

>>> The Waertagi are not Merfolk.

>>Unless you follow the school of thought that Waertag is the lost >>sorcerous triton.

> Waertag is the Logical Explorer of the Seas. He was human first
> and foremost before his descendents adapted themselves.

As a tribal founder, Waertag may have been one of the Third Action entities (before multiplication). Tritons are the immortal source for the Man Rune for merfolk. The sorcerous world one may well have manifested on Danmalastan.

> In what way does the fact that Sea Dragons appear in
> Waertagi myth mean they can't be draconic?

Sea Dragons appear in Wartain Mertribe myths, in the context of native creatures of the Sea Queen (Wyrm's Footprints p.19).

>>> So you don't see any evidence for the Loskalmi and Seshnegi >>> fighting dragons in their own country.

> >Correct. Not a single shred in any of the publications.

> Categorically incorrect. Herjan the Raider [MSE p30] and possibly
> Saval [MSE p17].

Hasn't arrived at my door yet, so all information I have on these characters is from the Seshnegi King list.

Besides, within history there is nothing to stop dream dragons to wander and settle wherever they like.

>>> What about the dragonewts of fallen Seshnela?

>>What about those of Jrustela and Pamaltela? Not present there.

> Considering the question was knights fighting dragons in
> Loskalm and Seshnela,

The reply was about dragonewts of fallen Seshnela, not knights fighting dragons.

"Fallen Seshnela" I suppose means the drowned lands along the western and southern coast. Further east on the south shore we find the Trachodon Marsh, where I might expect some dragonewt presence (loosely tied to Ryzel) in order to satisfy "Introduction to Glorantha" booklet. (Coincidentally, the only region of Genertela south of the White Sea not mapped in the Genertela Book.)

I would not expect them in Kanthor's Forest/Isles based on a single throwaway line.

> in Pamaltela and something must be producing the dinosaurs as
> there are no dinosaurs among the Fiwan.

What's your source for that? After all, the marshes of the Worm Sea and southern Slon are infested by "dinosaur hsunchen", the Jaskali. (Jaskal being the ancestor of reptiles among the children of Hykim and Mikyh.)

>>Even Ralios had to be settled from Peloria.

> Although the 'newts of Ralios had their origins in Peloria, the
> subject was Dragons, not 'newts. One can have dragons
> without newts as much of Kralorela does.

The subject had moved on to 'newts when you brought them up. 'Newts being draconic beings, this still is relevant.

>>Seshnela was Earth Snake country.

> So? It's not a question of either it is a serpent or it is
> a dragon with no middle ground ever possible. Considering
> that the EWF and the Kralori were quite clever in finding
> in draconic analogs, it's no big leap that the snakes
> of Seshnela could possibly be made into a draconic cult.

The (later) God Learners were even more adept at finding draconic ties - according to their monomyth, all beast life descends from Hykim and Mikyh.

(Which makes me wonder how much regard they had left for their Danmalastan myths.)

>>> Apart from Zzabur speaking of a True Being who "became a dragon
>>> that ate all the dead things and shat out a new generation of things
>>> to fight and kill" or of Desdoram who placed his head in the
>>> serpent's jaw?  (Revealed Mythologies p2).

>>A parallel to Genner, Bamat, Worlath, and Vit. This doesn't populate
>>Danmalastan with Great Spirits, Storm Gods, or Parloth, other than as >>invaders.

> In other words, there is evidence for dragons in Danmalastan?

One entity reported as True Being turning into a dragon(-like entity). Another one dabbling with non-logical magic (placing the head in the serpent's jaw - experimenting with alien magic, the serpent in question might be Amuron the Horned Serpent or a dragon, neither native to Danmalastan.

> Secondly Worlath and Ehilm were True Beings that lived and died
> in Danmalastan alongside Zzabur and Malkion.
[...]
> Bamat, Genner and Vit on the other hand are entities set in
> other lands and so the argument about Danmalastan being full
> of Gods and Spirits is misguided.

I wonder why you make Worlath a native of Danmalastan and Genner not.

Revealed Mythologies 22:

"Genner devised the practice of sacrifice, and tricked humans into sacrificing to him, thereby making him the first pagan being. Genner may have been a sibling to Zzabur, or may have been a son of Kachast. Genner was in the Early Rebellion. To help him, he taught others this trick, but it backfired when Worlath seized the rule of Gennerela"

>>Zzabur is quite meticulous about naming all the invaders his magics >>fought off.

> If this is reference to the list of the wars of low and high magic,
> then dragons are not listed (an oversight I think).

That's the reference, and dragons being absent could be an omission.

(Much like the presence of dragonewts in Seshnela may be an early mention never repeated again when discussing dragonewt distribution in depth, e.g. in Elder Secrets or Anaxial.)

> In any event
> most of the wars of low magic are wars against domestic
> enemies within Danmalastan as opposed to the enemies of
> the wars of high magic which are without Danmalastan.

Worlath specifically comes as ruler of Gennerela.

>> Dragons are defined as different otherworld, and remain >>excluded.

> Dragons are nowhere defined as different otherworlds and
> do in fact appear quite naturally on the sorcery plane
> (whether the Malkioni like them to appear there is a
> different question entirely).

Dragons go wherever they want, even to the Red Moon. Some Creation myths have the dragons coming from outside of the world to Glorantha, meeting Larnste in Dragon Pass.

(This could be read as evidence for the collision of worlds, too, if you want to root the dragons in the Vithelan quarter of the world.)

>>This amounts to "Kralori myth doesn't differentiate between >>TarnGatHa and Vith".

> No, it doesn't. It's not a statement about Kralori myth but simply
> an off-handed comment. Dogsalu is a much better fit for TarnGatHa
> than Vith will ever be.

So Kerandaruth/Kralorela did not exist, or did not have a ruler, before Dogsalu was created?

>>The Green Dragon is the only one to receive a description in some detail.

> And which description reads as follows:

> The full extent of the green dragon's magical abilities would
> take too long to list and are best determined by the narrator
> as needed. In particular, many minor non-magical abilities
> with a 'mere' three masteries or less are likely to be known.

> Anaxial's Roster p157.

> Ample room for Snake Whiskers 1w3.

You might read too much into rules system details.

>>> The Kralori would go so far as to argue
>>> that the War in Heaven was the primary event and that
>>> the Dragonkill was an aftershock.

>>All that the Kralori would observe were the events visible in the >>heavens.

> Nope. There was the terrible typhoon, the awful drought, the
> huge fire, a great shake and all that. Heaven refers not to
> some distant celestial realm but the spiritual foundations
> of Kralorela.

The awakening of draconic power, dragons leaving for the west.

Yes, the Kralori would say that the dragons leaving (or the survivors coming back with less turmoil) was all the action.

Really makes me wonder if dragons taking off elsewhere to join the fray left as much disorder. Wait, there's Ormsgone Valley...            

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