> John Hughes wrote:
>> I've always wondered about the exact details of the Marriage of
>> Orlanth and Ernalda.
> Of course, there are seven stories of this. One for each type
> of marriage.
As a sequence of events?
>> From the Ernaldan side it seems very uneven and >> to her disadvantage, almost a forced concubinage.
> That is harsh. Before I can even begin to anser that, I'd
> like to ask what makes it seem that way.
Ernalda is the ruler, yet she only stands by while Orlanth makes dumb decisions and acts upon them.
Heortling women leave the clan of their birth, while Heortling men settle into a nest made for them.
So to say: Ernalda gives up the Earth Palace to live in Storm Village.
(In mythical reality, she keeps the Earth Palace, but in mundane reality, her followers give up their birthrights).
Affinal kin is not treated the same way as kin is. This means that Orlanth's brothers are kin to the Storm Tribe, but hypothetical Earth Tribe members that were not participating in the Making of the Storm Tribe are excluded.
(It is something of a miracle that all the lowfire husband deities of the various Ernalda subcult deities (Mahome's brothers) are part of the Storm Tribe. You can see how prominent they are by trying to recall their names without looking them up: Apart from Gustbran and Oakfed I doubt anyone will get the spelling right, if remembering them at all.)
>> Orlanthi men seem
>> to have the advantage in most circumstances.
> Again, I am surprised.
Have you ever told the story of Onelisin Cat-Witch? I heard rumors that, upon the death of Sarotar, she tried to convince Saronil to make her the heir, but instead Jarolar became the next Prince of Sartar. Whether that story exists or only is implied, Onelisin not being mentioned in Composite History of Dragon Pass and in no detail in Argrath's maternal lineage is symptomatic. (Though possibly symptomatic for Vingkotling type kingship, too...)
(I'd like to wager that she doesn't appear in the "missing chapters" that were auctioned off recently, either).
> Women have the right to divorce for no
> reason, keep their own property and own half of what the couple
> creates, can hold just about any political position, and many
> other things that I do not associate with a disadvantaged position.
Ok, let's take divorce.
First of all, all the rights you mentioned above apply for men as well.
My fiance's character is a divorced initiate of Bevara, which makes me familiar with the situation.
While she gained some prosperity from a couple of years marriage with her former husband, upon divorce she effectively _lost her children_. As an "adventuring type", she wasn't around for them all the time anyway, but that's approved Heortling custom - all children of a stead are raised as a group, and while individual mothers will have a closer relation to their own children, all the women working on the stead are available for the children, and divide up the task looking after them. Still, the own mother remains a focus of attention for a child, and her not being around at all any more means that the early life of these children is lost to her. She might still visit the clan, but she won't automatically be greeted as kin, or even affinal kin. Especially not if relations between the clans aren't too nice.
The usual marriage contract assigns the offspring to the clan where the couple lives, which is (excepting the Esrolian Marriage) the husband's clan. Thus, a woman who divorces usually divorces from husband (there will be reasons for that) _and_ children. Which makes divorce rather rare, I would think.
While a divorce apparently leaves a woman with an intact economical situation, as old age draws nigh, this is shown not to be true. There won't be any of her own children (or rather, her sons' wives) around to care for her.
This is the big issue of strictly exogamous clans, really. It breaks the bloodline ties of the females.
In the myth, Orlanth adopts Ernalda's mother and even aunt into the clan/tribe. In reality, this does not happen.
There seems to be only one single myth where Ernalda teaches her magics not to her own daughters, but to other mothers' daughters: Mahome marrying Barntar. Pretty thin for the foundation of an entire culture.
Immortalized mortals don't look much better.
Of Vingkot's wives, I don't know the names. (Are they in "History of the Heortling Peoples"?)
Ivarne, Heort's wife, cultural mother of the Heortlings, apparently has lost all her family connections - she was found alone, frozen in the ice.
Orane the Weaver brings her entire kin when marrying Durev. That's exceedingly rare in Heortling history - the only incident in Heortling history I can cite offhand is Colymar's wife Hareva. Basically, this only happens when a marriage creates a clan.
>> or the conservative >> seventies/eighties values and feel that attach to Glorantha as a >> whole
> Once again, may I ask for an explanation of what this means, to you,
> before I even attempt a reply?
That's a symptom of the long-time Glorantha afficionados.
Once upon a time, all we knew about Sartarite culture were snippets in the Pavis box, the two Sartarite scenario booklets Apple Lane (probably the least typical village of the country) and Snake Pipe Hollow, a couple of Sartarite adventurers in Balazar, and the Wyrm's Footprints material from the Sartar Campaign.
Almost all female characters we encountered there were active. Benava Chan and the Chalana Arroy cultists were portrayed as less hands-on than the males, but all other named women we encounter act like Orlanth, not like Ernalda.
(This same mindset included that if you act like a deity, you'll probably be an initiate of that deity.)
This created the impression that women acting like Orlanth were the norm in Orlanthi culture.
Then Vinga came up. And became popular because it was assumed she stood for all these women (who, in our minds, still were quite close to the norm, displaying acceptable behavior).
>> The restrictive gender roles in Heortling society have been >> carefully packaged as not representing historic or cultural mores
> Well, of course they are historic and cultural to the Heortlings.
> What did you mean here?
That the gender roles in Heortling society reflect those of historical real world barbarian societies, e.g. Vikings or pre-Roman Britons (to cite some of the most egalitarian, yet strictly patriarchalic parallels).
We sort of accept or expect such behavior from Solar cultures in Glorantha, or the Malkioni. We don't expect it from Orlanthi.
>> Yet it is in essence a
>> conservative, patriarchal setup,
> Please, once again, tell me what you mean by this.
Take the definition of bloodlines. Going strictly after the definitions as published, a Heortling couple (male from clan A, female from clan B) could marry their children to the children of their married siblings (brother of the wife from clan B, sister of the husband from clan A) without this being considered inbreeding. (In praxis, the women's circle would prevent this happening, unless it was about chieftains' children reaffirming close clan ties.)
Female chieftains or kings are an exception. Looking at published names, roughly a 1 in 7 occurrance, the not-norm. The chief decides who is on the ring, and who he will listen to. Now how good are Orlanthi at listening to sage advice? Usually they start to listen once their boyish attempts to deal with opposition has been thwarted.
Example: the Aroka quest. First thing Orlanth does is try to beat up Daga, failing dismally. Then he starts gathering advice and tricks, from his adventuring buddies.
How would Ernalda have handled this problem in the absence of a husband?
(The traditional method is "send the husband, if it's an external threat", with "send" being a mixture of subtle hints, appeals to his vanity, ...)
So, what would a hypothetical Ernalda Adventurous do? Go out, gather a bunch of muscle and speciality skills companions, overcome some preliminary obstacles, and then: talk to the opposition, come to an agreement. A Persephone solution. (Parallels to the Lightbringers' Quest intentional: this is Orlanth acting like Ernalda would have done. Including seeking the Compromise, bidding for friendship, etc.)
(<kidding>Any ideas on the identity of Ginna Jar?</kidding>)
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