Re: I need some clarification here first

From: Greg <Greg_at_drRkUHVBJHeZB4F4ChhIumcZqEvS8tlLY-g8UWGs2oETrxjCCdSUno97n5hz4IdR6vrbRVo>
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:14:27 -0800


YGWV jorganos wrote:

> > John Hughes wrote:
> >> I've always wondered about the exact details of the Marriage of
> >> Orlanth and Ernalda.

> Greg replying to John Hughes:
> > Of course, there are seven stories of this. One for each type
> > of marriage.
>
> As a sequence of events?

Each of the myths says “This was their first marriage.”

> >> From the Ernaldan side it seems very uneven and
> >> to her disadvantage, almost a forced concubinage.
>
> > That is harsh. Before I can even begin to anser that, I'd
> > like to ask what makes it seem that way.
>
> Ernalda is the ruler, yet she only stands by while Orlanth makes dumb
> decisions and acts upon them.

Of course. “No one can make him do anything.” So she lets him do what is instincive.
How is that a disadvantage to her? He eventually learns his lesson and listens to her “other way” before acting off the cuff.

> Heortling women leave the clan of their birth, while Heortling men
> settle into a nest made for them.

Generally, yes. They have to live somewhere, and tha’s the custom.

> So to say: Ernalda gives up the Earth Palace to live in Storm Village.

Ernalda lives concurrently in both places.

> (In mythical reality, she keeps the Earth Palace, but in mundane
> reality, her followers give up their birthrights).

The fact that Ernalda lives concurrently in both places indicates that the saem is true for her followers. The fact that most of them can not bilocate does not change the mythical reality.

> Affinal kin is not treated the same way as kin is. This means that
> Orlanth's brothers are kin to the Storm Tribe, but hypothetical Earth
> Tribe members that were not participating in the Making of the Storm
> Tribe are excluded.

The religion is not the Storm Religion. It is the relgion of Orlantha nd Ernalda, a combination of storm and Earth. The tribes are one.

> >> Orlanthi men seem
> >> to have the advantage in most circumstances.
>
> > Again, I am surprised.
>
> Have you ever told the story of Onelisin Cat-Witch?

No.

> I heard rumors
> that, upon the death of Sarotar, she tried to convince Saronil to make
> her the heir, but instead Jarolar became the next Prince of Sartar.

So what? If this was the story—and I am not saying it is—then it doesn’t apply to the mythical reality of Ernalda and Orlanth. It is a story of two individuals, and it may be that it’s heavily laced with prejudice, comfort with various social roles and so on.

Besides, she was a Yinkin anyway.

> Whether that story exists or only is implied, Onelisin not being
> mentioned in Composite History of Dragon Pass and in no detail in
> Argrath's maternal lineage is symptomatic. (Though possibly
> symptomatic for Vingkotling type kingship, too...)

We know the Vingkotlinsgs were patrrlineal. Sons inherited their father’s position and stuff. But although that is still a trend among the Orlanthi, it is not the only way. But it is indicative of a general conflict between various ways.

> > Women have the right to divorce for no
> > reason, keep their own property and own half of what the couple
> > creates, can hold just about any political position, and many
> > other things that I do not associate with a disadvantaged position.
>
> Ok, let's take divorce.
>
> First of all, all the rights you mentioned above apply for men as well.

Yes, of course. Equal.

> My fiance's character is a divorced initiate of Bevara, which makes me
> familiar with the situation.
>
> While she gained some prosperity from a couple of years marriage with
> her former husband, upon divorce she effectively _lost her children_.

I am sorry to hear that. It need not have been so brutal.

> As an "adventuring type", she wasn't around for them all the time
> anyway, but that's approved Heortling custom - all children of a stead
> are raised as a group, and while individual mothers will have a closer
> relation to their own children, all the women working on the stead are
> available for the children, and divide up the task looking after them.

Yes, more or less so.

> Still, the own mother remains a focus of attention for a child, and
> her not being around at all any more means that the early life of
> these children is lost to her.

It is customary for a (masculine) clan to have wives from just a few other clans. (In our world, I’ve seen it where they ALL come from one clan.) Thus the women of any clan tend to be related to each other by blood, and this would alleviate the “loss.”

> She might still visit the clan, but she
> won't automatically be greeted as kin, or even affinal kin. Especially
> not if relations between the clans aren't too nice.

When clans with kinhip come to blows, it is always tragic. That is the stuff that stories are made of. And it is still kinstrife.

That is the stuff of stories, and of the mundane world. The mythic reality that underlies the physical world strives to correct that. The ongoing history of humanity is an effort to find the proper balance in the world. Human failings do not alter the underlying facts.

> The usual marriage contract assigns the offspring to the clan where
> the couple lives, which is (excepting the Esrolian Marriage) the
> husband's clan. Thus, a woman who divorces usually divorces from
> husband (there will be reasons for that) _and_ children.

A woman’s relationship with her children is not severred by a divorce.

> Which makes
> divorce rather rare, I would think.

Considering that either party can divorce for any reason whatsoever, including no reason; and that some forms of marriage automatically end after a pre-stated time, I do not think it is so rare.

> While a divorce apparently leaves a woman with an intact economical
> situation, as old age draws nigh, this is shown not to be true. There
> won't be any of her own children (or rather, her sons' wives) around
> to care for her.

Nonsense. Of coufrse they would continue to cae for her. Besides which, due to the collective naure of the clan, even if they ignored her this is not as much of a crisis as it is for the modern, Western nuclear family.

> This is the big issue of strictly exogamous clans, really. It breaks
> the bloodline ties of the females.

I think you are exaggerating the nature of her “joinng the husband’s clan” This does not dissolve her own connections. She still has sisters, parents, cousins, etc.

> In the myth, Orlanth adopts Ernalda's mother and even aunt into the
> clan/tribe. In reality, this does not happen.

Where does he adopt them into his clan?

> There seems to be only one single myth where Ernalda teaches her
> magics not to her own daughters, but to other mothers' daughters:
> Mahome marrying Barntar. Pretty thin for the foundation of an entire
> culture.

OK, so here finally is something I had asked for. An apparent omision in the mythology that someone would like to clarified.

> Immortalized mortals don't look much better.

Better than what?

> Of Vingkot's wives, I don't know the names. (Are they in "History of
> the Heortling Peoples"?)

Nor of most of the kings in anyh Orlanthi stories. That is because the Orlanthi tend to have the active part, hence are namd in the stories of the active parts of history.

> Ivarne, Heort's wife, cultural mother of the Heortlings, apparently
> has lost all her family connections - she was found alone, frozen in
> the ice.

Just about everyone in the Darkness had lost their family connections. That is th enature of the Darkness. Do you think Heort’s parents were alive? Does he have any brothers or sisters?

> Orane the Weaver brings her entire kin when marrying Durev. That's
> exceedingly rare in Heortling history - the only incident in Heortling
> history I can cite offhand is Colymar's wife Hareva. Basically, this
> only happens when a marriage creates a clan.

I am missing the point here.

I have clipped the rest because it is not directly relevant to the above, and this letter is too long for easy digestion already.

-- 
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
1942 Channing Way, #204
Berkeley, CA 94704




           

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