> Which is why I think it is better to talk about non-divine
> marriages.
True. However, I am taking some of the part of an advocatus diaboli here, trying to find the gaps in both the myths and the mundane world of Glorantha.
> The gods don't always have to follow the same rules as mortals
> (frex, the gods aren't Heortlings)!
Some will create the precedence for mortal behavior, or the mortals who did the archetypical behavior will become (very minor) deities.
>>> Amongst the patrilineal Heortlings (at least most Heortling >>> clans), that is right, but that is a clan thing.
>> When most clans do it, and only a small minority doesn't, its a >> feature of the culture.
> Sure. Most Heortling clans are patrilineal.
And that can translate into an impression of a strong patriarchal society with imbalanced rights.
>>> Some clans do it in reverse.
>> And their ways have been called "Esrolian" for that.
> Sure. Most Esrolian clans are matrilineal. But there is overlap.
> Some Esrolian clans are patrilineal and some Orlanthi clans are
> matrilineal.
The typical 1 in 7 portion defining the Orlanthi All by exception, yes.
This is just to show why Heortling society can be perceived as all patriarchal, and why the ability to initiate a divorce doesn't make a position of strength for a woman.
(Iceland Saga style stuff about divorce snipped.)
>> Durene gets to pack up her things, and some extra from her prosperous >> time with Ranulf. She leaves three children behind, and returns to the >> Wild Cat clan.
> And maybe is considered enough of an affront to the Wild Cats
> that it brings them into the feud on the side of the Red Fox
> clan. Durene is a source of friendship between the Blue Jays
> and the Wild Cats. If the Durene-Ranulf marriage is no more,
> then possibly so is the friendship with the Wild Cats! Maybe
> Durene's brothers decide to raid or even kill some Ranulf's kin
> to show the danger of not respecting the Wild Cats.
And it won't be considered kinstrife. Those children of hers aren't regarded as kin.
>> Now, how often, and under what circumstances, will she be able to see >> her children?
> Depends wildly. But likely this scenario will not end well.
What I outlined won't exactly be a rare occurrance. If a clan of 800 people has about 150 married couples, a divorce may happen as often as more than once a year (in the average). Even if most divorces won't strain clan relations too much, one or two every ten years will go wrong in a big way.
>> The Wild Cats don't really have a position for a divorced woman, >> and after a while Durene gets married to Orlgandi of the Stout >> Oaks, another ally of both the Wild Cats and the Red Foxes.
> Boy, those Wild Cat matchmakers are really shrewd! Remember, the
> matchmakers probably came from another clan as well.
Such as the Red Foxes (where an established female network exists).
>> To complete the Icelendic saga, 12 years later, the Blue Jays raid >> the Stout Oaks. The Stout Oaks raid back. Durene's sons stand with >> the defenders of the Blue Jays. Sorrow time all over.
> Yep. Kinstrife commences!!! Sounds like a great campaign idea. :)
In my family game, a weaker form of that was just character background. Creates lots of interesting relationships and flaws.
However, are the people involved still kin, under Heortling law?
So, when creating a player clan, we ought to keep track which clans produced the most influential wives, and let politics - both intra- and inter-clan politics - start from there.
>> So, Durene gets the same deal as Ranulf?
> Ranulf may well be killed in the process. But you've described a
> tragedy - everyone gets screwed.
That's what you get from reading Iceland sagas, be it Gisli or Njal...
Even if it doesn't come to a feud, Durene might well be screwed if those matchmakers fail to get her a good marriage. She'll become a measly cottar on her brother's stead, dependent on his wife's pleasure if she wants to participate in the carl welfare of her background. With no land claim of her own, her cattle will be joined to her brother's herd, she will have to work his fields or a small garden plot.
As she gets old and frail, surviving her brother, there will be only nieces and nephews to look after her, no sons, and more importantly no daughters-in-law.
Ranulf, on the other hand, might step back as steadholder, but will be surrounded by sons, daughters-in-law, and grandchildren.
>>> Women tend to have a broader social network than men - they have >>> both their birth clan AND their marriage clan. Men tend to focus >>> solely upon their birth clan. >> Which does create problems like the one I illustrated above. >> With the prevalence of male chieftains, the birth clan ties >> get played down in clan politics, especially in times of conflict.
> Women will be extremely reluctant to allow their marriage clan
> to get into fights with their birth clan.
Which is why I used a scenario where a third clan got involved in the fight. There are only so many clans in Sartar (around 150), so this situation where a female kinship network is targeted indirectly by a woman's married clan will be the rule.
> Keep in mind that women - even though they are not usually
> born in the clan - have the same right to participate
> in clan assemblies as do the men. And they have a broader
> set of social networks to draw on.
That will mean that the women of a clan will have factions with different out-of-clan alliances in any constellation but a triaty, making clan decisions more "interesting" than anybody cares. If one faction keeps losing, this may well result in divorces and all the ugly consequences. If the factions are balanced, the men will be able to dictate the policy, and the women are restricted to damage control.
Leading to the impression of a strongly patriarchalic society, again.
> This is also part of the reason why Triarchies tend to be so very
> stable and why tribes tend to form. I actually think women may end up
> having a more "tribal" perspective than most men.
That doesn't mean that clans are expected to restrict their alliances to clans in their tribe. One form of diplomatic marriage is the peace offer marriage, a thinly veiled mutual exchange of female hostages to end (or at least stall) feuds. This can't be done by year marriages if the peace is to hold for more than a year.
(Which brings me to another method of hostage exchange, fosterage of boys with individuals from other clans. Does this happen? Will this create a male inter-clan network, or will shared military campaigns or heroband experiences introduce such a thing?)
>> Year marriages bring another problem. Where will a child be born >> if it takes the woman till mid-year to get pregnant?
> If she doesn't renew the Year Marriage, then in her birth clan. Or
> maybe she gives the child to her husband's kin. Or maybe something
else.
Not fundamentally different from the outcome of a divorce. The clan invests less in such marriages, but her economic security is less by the same reasoning.
I'll take it as a given that a mothers tie to her children is stronger than a father's. Giving up her children will be painful, whether there is a feud or not. The men get anything they ask for - a temporary sexual partner, heirs, freedom to spread their genes.
>> What if the couple has a child while unmarried, then marries? >> Who gets the child?
> Depends on when. These sorts of things create disputes which
> may have to be argued out between the clans at the tribal assembly.
Or worse, if the marriage is between clans from different tribes.
>>> Here I disagree. Women keep their birth kin - they are not >>> Separated from their clan (like a Humakti, Uroxing or other >>> cultist). If Durene needs assistance from the Wild Cat clan, >>> she can call upon them. In some stories, the wife's kinfolk >>> are more relevant than the husband's.
>> I don't disagree with that. Does this extend to her children, too?
> In some cases it might.
>> Does this remain even if Durene leaves the Blue Jays?
> Possibly. It depends on the exact circumstances.
So maternal uncles and grandfathers get a say in intra-clan affairs? Like e.g. the dowry and/or bride price of a daughter married off to a third clan?
>> What does this mean if the woman loses her marriage kin? Not just >> through divorce. How does a Heortling widow fare? What is the mythical >> precedence for that?
> A widow usually stays in her marriage clan. She has her children and
> maybe her grandchildren and may ultimately end up being dominant
> within her marriage clan (or maybe she ends up penniless and supported
> by her deceased husband's kin).
That doesn't take care of young widows in childbearing age. No clan
can afford
to let their fertility lie fallow. Esrolian marriage won't be the
solution.
So: who gets to arrange a marriage for the widows? What happens to their children?
> I find this the fascinating irony about Heortling families. A women
> marries a man in another clan and goes to the other community. She
> has children and plays an increasing role in that new clan (and that
> role is formal and political). As her children become adults, she
> becomes an elder in her marriage clan and marries her daughters off to
> another clan (in many cases, her birth clan). The women get a bigger
> picture of how the communities work together than most men.
And also how they work against each other. This networking necessarily creates competition among the wives of a clan, establishing dominance of different networks will be expected by the extra-clan members of that network.
A recipe for unrest in a clan.
Powered by hypermail