Re: Initiates [was part of Re: Make up new Gods, dang it!]

From: donald_at_0fyoQfa81mgrKGJ9vyK-4N3a1ts0Z_RHopDWwP5J7Flp2rYc2mNYhfI1HsS_MqOKaptoi
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:19:46 GMT


In message <f7g0eo+9lc8_at_eGroups.com> "bryan_thx" writes:
 

>> >> > I have difficulty with the idea that a pre-industrial society
>> >> > should have anything like 10% of the adult population being
>> >> > specialists.
>>
>> First, initiates are not "specialists" in the definition that they
>> would be pulled out of the labor force, which is how I wold define
>> specialists.
>> And where "labor force" = farmers or other food production.
>
>I think something got lost in the snipping--the original poster was
>talking about devotees, not initiates. Sorry that I lost that context
>while trying to not re-post at too much length.

Actually I've not been too clear when I was using specialist for non-farming/housewife occupations and when I've been using it to apply to all devotees. A devotee of Barntar is a specialist - a specialist farmer. A clan doesn't need to have one but if they do not only is he a more productive farmer but by helping and advising the rest of the clan's farmers they are also more productive. Initiates are not specialists in any sense until and unless they have been allowed to take up a specialist occupation.

>This was a finger in the air for being an initiate -and- having an
>occupation. I was basing this on (I think it was) Thunder Rebels
>(might have been HW?). It was stated somewhere that with 60% of their
>time devoted to their gods, devotees could not hold down an occupation
>in addition. This implies that 60% of time is roughly "full time,"
>and hence that an initiate who was also performing some occupation
>would be at least 60% of time. I think also that in Barbarian
>Adventures (and the further publications) they use 30% of time going
>to 'occupation' of whatever sort. So 30% for being an inititate, 30%
>for occupation = same time commitment as a devotee. So a farmer who
>is an initiate of a farmer god spends about as much time and effort on
>farming as does does a devotee of a farming god.

I think these numbers are way out. Even today farming is a seven day a week job often with ten hour days and peaks of twelve to fourteen hours. Allowing for one day a week doing minimal work and generous holy days you might get the total down to 50% over the year. It follows that initiating into anything other than a farming subcult will fill up most of a man's spare time. So while young unattached men have the option of taking on another occupation there's a big incentive to initiate into a farming subcults because of the overlap with their occupation allows more free time. The same applies to women for anything other than household and weaving subcults.

If initiates are good at their chosen subcult they will find that the clan allows them to spend part and eventually all their working time doing that rather than farming. Assuming there isn't a surplus of people in that occupation.

In practice therefore you can only become a devotee if that subcult is also your occupation as the overlap keeps the total below 100%. I don't believe that you can manage total overlap though, I'd expect a devotees total of job and devotion to be around 80%. So in modern terms a devotee is the person who works late every night, takes work home at the weekend and checks in with the office when on holiday.

The other issue is relationships - if 80% of your time is spent on your job and god that doesn't leave much for your spouse and children. That's why most people don't become devotees even for the benefits. Disciples are even worse, the 90% means the clan will not get much mundane work out of them and is supporting them for their magic.

Yes, I know this is a creative interpretion of the figures but that's because I see the published figures as a game mechanic rather than a reflection of Gloranthan reality. The NPCs in the Sartar Rising series are unusual because they are politicans and warriors and fitting them to the game mechanic has produced some strange results.

-- 
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/

           

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