Re: Real World Vingans

From: donald_at_JX8CQBMswFa5b-Ow8M5nfAVXy0Rz6cxEvCua17YzsGAvu_TOtNil9Zyq1vR3TWxAbDyPF
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:19:01 GMT

In message <f84gvb+qqtj_at_eGroups.com> "julianlord" writes:
>Donald :
>
>> To the Heortlings male and female are defined by the
>> roles people take. So to them a Vingan is male, attending
>> the moot as a Thunder Brother with spear and shield not
>> as a Weaver Woman with cookpot and spoon.
>>
>> Alternatively they have four sexes - Male, Female, Vingan
>> and Nandan.
>>
>> In either case children are technically neuter until
>> initiation.
>
>An amusing discussion, firestarted by an at least semi-tongue-in-
>cheek remark by Greg.
>
>Anyway, I'll pick up on your remark here --- and sorry, but this is a
>misunderstanding -- there are TWO genders, male and female (duh?) :
>NO neuter, Nandan, Vingan, nor Helering...

I presume you are referring to physical genders here. As I recall the context of the discussion it was about *social* genders. While modern western society has an obsession about making social gender match physical gender that's not true of many cultures in the RW so I don't see why it should apply in Glorantha.

Even physical gender isn't as absolute as you imply. There are a small minority of babies born with gentials which aren't clearly male or female. They are usually operated upon to make them one or the other so that they can be classified.

>Jane mentioned that Vinga is not from the water Tribe, correct --
>Vingans have no gender mutability whatsoever, and not even Helerings
>would have physically sexual mutability either, normally.
>
>"Male" Vingans would be tomboys as children, just as young Nandani
>would be sissies (or whichever less derogatory term).

I'm not at all sure that this is true. KoS states that all the childless widows of the Kheldon joined the cult of Vinga at one stage. It is unlikely that they were all tomboys.

>Only through Heler can male and female roles normally be taken on
>variously throughout life, or even mixed and matched, letting a
>Helering say help look after the kids of the clan and do some loom
>weaving etc, and still be war leader of the local fyrd, a good
>husband and father, etc...

I suspect that this is very rare. Simply because there isn't time to become competent at all the required skills. A limited subset of male and female skills certainly.

>Vingans and Nandani MUST choose between one or the other, although it
>has to be said that most Nandani wouldn't normally get any choice at
>all... but there is a place in Heortling society for women warriors,
>so that a Vingan _can_ be a woman, and proud of it ;-)

I'm of the view that many more women learn weapon handling than just Vingans. Not that it makes them warriors any more than the average male Orlanthi is. But they add to they fyrd and can pick up a spear to defend their stead if it's attacked.

-- 
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/