Re: Rightarm Islanders (long)

From: jorganos <joe_at_0hSU9e8Vj5P9Nowrt8fOiHDPO5kuJzHiiADgCWnNycJY00ZDT5XFLd3ymbaIhR24jD5PRKzs>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:33:47 -0000


I've been following the Kethaelan threads without much online access. This is my old (and still current) hobby horse, so I'll add some observations and comments.

The use of triremes by the Kethaelans is long-established canon.

In my personal opinion, this is also the reason why the Holy Country failed to dominate the seas after the Opening: triremes are bad at high sea sailing and work best in sheltered waters - e.g. between the archipelagos.

I can't help but wonder: Do triremes have better ramming speed and maneuverability than say Augustan biremes or Byzantine Dromons? Is this the same argument as longbow vs. crossbow (i.e. with a genuine advantage for demanding that much training), or is this because of tradition or magic?

Dormal's voyage of Opening would have used some sea-going, non-military type of craft - likely the sailed cargo tub from Men of the Seas.

The first naval battles (the Alatan incidents) may have involved rowed ships, but I doubt that highly specialized war vessels were involved. I always pictured these more along the early Hanseatic League naval battles (e.g. against Denmark and Sweden, or against the Likedeeler pirates), with armed merchantment sailing ships as the main participants.

Personally, I would have expected the post-Opening navies to employ ships similar to the byzantine (and moslem) dromons of 8th to 11th century Mediterranean naval warfare. Rowed and sailed ships, equipped for ramming, with sailing properties similar to the Viking longship (there may have been cross-fertilization along the eastern Viking trade route). Less seaworthy than the tubbier merchant vessels, but faster. (This goes for Viking dragonships vs knorrs as much as for Byzantine dromons vs their grain tubs.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromon

Pasos and Kethaela have a good use for a rowed navy among their home islands (and on the wave-arm Mirrorsea Bay). Ramming and sinking ships full of bloodthirsty pirates also gives a tactical advantage to the more peacefully inclined Kethaelans. The barbarian elements of Kethaela still could serve as marines - fiery missiles hurled by Caladrans, close combat axe wielding Heortlings, or even Uz blockers and enlo spearkin.

Side notes:

IMG the Mirrorsea Bay has practically no wave action. It still has fairly strong (but steady) winds, which only fail to ruffle the sea surface. I see no other way to have a Storm Sixth overlooking that bay...

IMG God Forgot peasants make excellent rowers. Obedient, hard working, unimaginative, used to excessive coordination...

IMG the coastal flats of Heortland (and around Karse) are inhabited by Pelaskites resembling the cult in Storm Tribe rather than the pantheon in Men of the Sea. There will be mixed settlements of Heortling shepherds and Pelaskite fisherfolk, possibly with rather separated bloodlines, in clans that were formed through adoption rites. Probably both ways, during the Gray Age, following the destruction of the Garanvuli, etc.

Uz navy: The Only Old One had a fleet of black galleys crewed entirely by Uz. Uz Lore mentions them as late as 300 years after the Closing. I suppose some of those (or re-builds) will serve under the Pharaoh, too. These are especially deadly where the naval uz cooperate with the sea-trolls as combat swimmers.

Naval crews origin: I would expect the sailing and ramming officers (pilot, helmsman) to be drawn mainly from the Pelaskite cultures. Urban people of all backgrounds are likely to have provided a disproportionally large share of rowers, but probably still less than rural Esrolians in absolute numbers. Commanding officers probably have both professional warriors from coastal areas and experienced sailing officers. High command of the fleet is Rightarm Islander privilege, if nothing else for ritual reasons and for diplomacy with the Ludoch.

Shipyards: Main ship-building centers in my Kethaela are Rhigos, Seapolis and Karse.
Karse has an established tradition at wood-craft and boat-building and a regular resource of lumber on the Upper Marzeel River. Rhigos has a regular source of lumber rafted down from upriver lands. Seapolis imports the lumber, but also has a tradition at wood-working and boat-building.
Nochet has shipyards, too, but IMG is mainly occupied with servicing ships. The lumber situation is worse than in Karse or Rhigos. Leskos and Vizel in coastal Heortland have adequate access to lumber, but are fairly small ports. In my Heortland campaign, I had an Esvulari warder of the coastal regions who maintained a naval militia in smaller patrol craft (named Ashart Tide-Biter).  

Pharaonic Expedition Fleets: Again IMO, these were armed merchant ships rather than navy ships. The first expeditions westwards were led by Dormal and expected mostly peaceful encounters with the coastal population. The eastern expedition expected rich trade goods that had been available only via expensive and risky caravans through Praxian territory before, and would have attracted merchant adventurers, too.

Replying to Greg:
> But let us recall the hostility of the air towards the water,
> and remember to subtract that sixth from the total.

As far as the population on the plateau is concerned, I agree. The coastal areas (including the port cities of Leskos and Vizel, and possibly even Jansholm) are a different proposition. With the rise of the Esvulari, coastal fisherfolk and the atypical cult affiliations in the cities, I suppose that the Heortland Sixth had to and did field its share of naval personnel. Possibly lessened by an extra share of lumber provided to naval shipyards.
Let's not forget the Storm Tribe Pelaskos write-up, which also features Orstan the Carpenter in boat-building.

Also, if the Esrolians really are not that different from the Heortlings, the same hostility is likely to affect Esrolian rowers.

How big a portion of the Kethaelan navy was crewed by females, BTW?

> And the God Forgot
> guys, well, they are pretty specialized and not suitable for rowing.

As I said above: serfs used to following the orders of a Talar, able to pull a rope in rhythm, unimaginative - sounds like the perfect raw material for rowers.

> And uz triremes? Hmmm....

Uz probably would field black galleys rather than triremes. Enlo on the lower decks for steady pace (and provisions), Uzdo and Uzko rowers for speed ramming and as marines, aided by sea-trolls.

Greg:
>> I think it's a better opportunity for the peasants of Esrolia to try to
>> get ahead. Ten years at the oar, and be promoted!

Jeff Richard:
> Sure, but for the first few years, those ships manned by Esrolian
> peasants will be eaten alive by the Wolf Pirates.

Only since 1606, leaving 24 years of neglectible loss for the home fleet (which is where most triremes would sail).

Triremes have no business sailing the open seas for any major distance. Hugging the coasts is possible, so I would expect a contingent of triremes stationed in Dosakayo after the expeditionary fleet established a presence there (and possibly a quarter to a half of the fleet returned to Kethaela to bring supplies, reinforcements, and service personnel while the rest sailed on to Kralorela). There may have been occasional patrols towards the Mournsea, but those waters were really controlled by Handran ships, so losses should have been neglectible.

Things changed when Orstando Black Wolf established the Yggite exile colony on the Threestep Isles around 1606 and began raiding the coasts for supplies, serfs and luxuries. I suppose that even then the naval losses were minor - a successful pirate raid would avoid naval vessels, grab the booty and return to the open sea. Seastorm magic (Ygg) would make a pursuit by triremes hopeless, and an all-out invasion of the Threestep Isles doesn't appear in the military history of the region. Most likely would have been pointless, too.

In engagements where the navy did corner wolf pirate vessels, my money would have been on the navy - coordinated ramming attacks are superior to wild boarding actions.

So, overall life as a navy rower doesn't look like a drowning position - until 1616.

Raiding navy ships would have provided little of worth to an enterprising wolf pirate captain who has to provide for his crew and their dependents. The ships are unlikely to carry huge amounts of provisions (and not the most tasty, either - hard bread and dried or salt fish), only the marines have any weaponry worth taking, and the bloody oars get tangled if you try to row these ships yourself with all banks manned (done only in combat or parade situations). The ram made them unwieldy to beach, too, and the rowers would not make so good serfs as peasants (and especially peasant or fisherfolk women).

Adept:
> I just realised that the place looked a bit like
> Norway, and has a lot of coast to use.

Denmark and England rather than Norway - there is mainly lowland along the bays, so you get the flat "fjords" such as at Schleswig or Roskilde for the river mouths, and then series of steep cliffs in the hinterland reminiscent of Dover or the Cliffs of Mohare in Ireland.

> I guess the Heortlanders just fish near the shore, and have mythical
> reasons to shun the open sea. They propably have good ports for trade,
> and adventurous people can on occasion take to the sailor's life.

IMG the coastal flats of central Heortland have maybe 35-40% Hendriki-descended folk, about 50% Pelaskite folk and the rest typical urban mix from all over Kethaela, with Esvulari the most important minority. South of Vizel the Esvulari swap position with the Hendriki.

I expect the official bloodlines to keep mainly apart, although the mating habits of sailors will have made the "gene pool" fairly uniform. It is accepted to bear children from cross-cultural liaisons and raise them within your own bloodlines and subculture, but you don't marry into the other bloodlines.

Open Seas fishing is (in our world) a very recent human effort, brought about by motor ships and sonar echolocation. I would assume that Waertagi and Rightarm Islanders could duplicate this coordinating with their merfolk allies, but I don't expect the coastal folk from further inside the Mirrorsea Bay to use these methods.

There usually is no need to, either. Speaking from personal fishing experience in the Baltic Sea (very similar to the coast line of Heortland, as mentioned above) and the northern Atlantic off Norway (quite different from that) and observations and experience exchange with Irish west coast fisherfolk, a good fishing ground usually includes an underwater cliffside or valley where the fish swarms are funneled through by currents.

Predatory fish is best caught with ground lines (logically limited to rather shallow waters, using bait) and hand lines, depending on the species you can use bait or blinkers. Smaller swarm fish (even filterers like herring) will bite on blinkers, and with multiple hooks on a hand line you can harvest quite a lot of fish from a swarm passing by.

Harpooning huge fish (shark, whales, seals) near the surface usually implies reasons for the prey to rise to the surface, too. You can follow fish swarms on the high sea to get towards these larger predators, but again these surface encounters are more likely where there are submarine mountains forcing these beasts up towards the surface or making them follow (or meet) vertical currents. Exception: Whales and other air-breathers surfacing for air. (Including potentially hostile merfolk such as Ysabbau.)

The only other good high sea hunting for humans is where currents meet and nutrients are exchanged. With the Rozgali and Solkathi currents rather broad and lazy, other than river inlets this means meeting the edge of the Doom Current. Applications by heroic fishermen only...

Jeff Richard:
> BTW, for those of you who have done crew, remember the difficult part
> of trireme rowing is coordinating with the other banks, which is far
> far far more difficult than rowing crew. Also remember, that trireme
> oars are not as comfy and ergonomic as the layout of a crew shell. It
> is not something easily or quickly learned.

Same goes with flawlessly marching in step while whirling some lethal implements around, or mastering the English longbow...

Being an effective rower in a trireme takes training. It doesn't take being a sailor, though.            

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