Indeed I do. Mostly because we have Viking era ships for the Neliomi Sea, and by extension for the original Wolf Pirates elsewhere.
> Personally I'm exasperated by the anachronisms in some parts of
> published glorantha, where triremes are found side by side with
> medieval sailing craft and even things approaching the pirate era
> galleons.
Kareeshtu Warsails, you mean.
That's the reason why I put a question mark behind triremes, too. However, I don't go with your "bronze age" romanticism. Bronze age ships were often paddled rather than rowed, sewn plank design filled with ribs almost as an afterthought rather than as original design, or hides on wooden frames. Most importantly: the only Bronze Age sailing ships were known in the eastern mediterranean. The Saxons, naval hazard to Romans and Celts all the way down to Spain, did not use sails in their Iron Age ships. The Vikings started using sails considerably later (although presumably before the actual start of the Viking Age).
> I love the idea that sailing ships in Glorantha are bronze age /
> early iron age in style and inspiration.
That would be things like the Hjortspring war canoe, a paddled boat carrying about 25 warriors across the baltic sea, or curragh-like designs (with similar double bows to the Hjortspring boat) probably in use since the Megalith builders' time.
The only documented sailing ships for the bronze Age are Nile river boats and Minoan barges. The penteconters used in the siege of Troy and in Odysseus' travels home mention masts, but are Iron Age. To use those alongside the Kareeshtan Warsails is anachronism in the extreme.
> Biremes and Triremes are much more
> atmospheric, that having Glorantha be just another fantasy setting
> where large, late era, sailing vessels rule the waves.
Have a look at the myth and history of shipbuilding and sailing in Glorantha. It starts with various myths about reed boats in inlynd marshes (Suvaria) and dugout boats (whether from beetle carapace, turtle shell, sea dragon, stone or tree) early in the Storm Age.
Then it explodes during the Storm Age with all the Blue-Skinned Sailors arriving in middle to late Storm Age. Both Helerings and Waertagi have cloud-derived ships, using "bound clouds" sails for wind propulsion.
The Waertagi suppress most naval enterprises during Dawn Age and early Imperial Age. When the Jrusteli build their wooden ships, they use sailing ships that sound like adaptations of Artmali design.
This means masts with more than a single sail, and rigging.
> One can argue how ships of that era didn't fare all that well on the
> high seas,
Discounting the curraghs that settled the northern Atlantic (one of the worst weather seas we have to offer) and the repeated claims for reed boat oceanic travel, the mediterranean ships are notoriously endangered when facing the Atlantic.
> but they still enabled the classical world to conduct business
> all over the known world.
Coastal sailing along the Mediterranean and Indic Ocean... comparatively easy conditions.
Cornish tin was transported by Celtic curraghs across the Biscaya or the Channel - really difficult conditions.
> I have absolutely no problem with the
> journey from Genertela to Pamaltela being perilous. It should be!
> As for the Middle Sea Empire of the Godlearners, they had all the
> magic in the world. You don't need late period sailing vessels when
> you can bend the sea and wind to your will.
The God Learners initially had no command over the seas. Without calling fire down into water, they would not have succeeded.
When they founded their empire, they used mainly sail-driven craft for transport and discovery. Naval warfare in the second Age appears to have consisted of magical contests rather than boarding actions or ramming.
Donald, to Adept:
>> I don't know where you get the idea of pirate galleons in Glorantha
>> from. I haven't seen anything remotely resembling them because
>> that design is based on cannon rather than ramming.
Adept:
> I was referring to earlier discussions on how gamers expect square
> rigged ships and sailors climbing masts instead of oar powered
> ships, and hence Gloranthan sailing has to reflect such
> expectations. I think this was discussed a lot when Men of
> the Sea was in the works, and when it was published.
Such things were discussed indeed, and a modicum of familarity was desired.
However, your "Bronze Age" sentimentalism fails because Bronze Age "sailing" (not using sails except in Egypt and eastern Mediterranean) generally was Neolithic technology. Early Iron Age sailing introduces the sail.
Triremes and Biremes are classical designs, i.e. on a technological level with early Renaissance (due to a series of changes in management which made most innovations disappear).
Hanseatic merchant ships would not have looked out of place in Roman Alexandria or Ostia. A bit smaller than the grain ships of that era.
>From my inestigations of ancient sailing, ramming ships appear not to
tolerate wave action. Probably a combination of low boards (or oar
openings) and the danger of the ram dragging down the ship into a
wave.
The Phoenicians ventured beyond Gibraltar but don't seem to have waged naval battles there (or anywhere - the only Phoenician culture engaged in naval war that I know of were the Carthaginans). The Romans had biremes there only after the conquest of Gaul, and as the inventors of infantry combat on ship decks weren't experts in ramming anyway. Contemporary raiders in rowed boats had comparatively high boards (e.g. the Nydam boat, or later Viking dragonships), but did not ram. Not even the Vikings who had encountered Byzantine ramming ships (e.g. Harald Hardrada, who had commanded a Byzantine fleet) ever attempted to copy that design.
Getting to Gloranthan seas: the Homeward Ocean is known for the Doom Currents and lots of named wave deities. I would expect Gloranthan war fleets to reflect this by using designs created for wave action, and except the defensive fleets of Kethaela and the Quinpolic League, all named ship types do. Those fleets mainly operate in between their own islands and probably do most their rowing leesides.
This is what makes me think of the trireme as an anachronism when stationed away from the Mirrorsea Bay. Having three banks of oars at various heights would mean either very high shipboards prone to capsizing (like the Vasa), or very low portholes prone to be swamped by any measure of wave action.
With the Rightarmers living in harmony with the seas, I really don't see the wisdom for using triremes...
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