> I was always under the impression that the North was cold because
of
> Valind and his Glacier, nit because it is in the North. If you go
> northwards but don't go to Valind's Glacier, is there any reason
why
> it has to be cold there?
The world storm blows south in the far east, with Veldru as local counterstorm, so it must go eastward or southeast over northern Pent. This means cold, dry storm much of the time.
> From the maps I've seen, Valind's Glacier covers the North West of
> Genertela and probably a lot of the North, but not necessarily the
> North East. What happens if you go from kralorela and travel North
> though the Kingdom of Ignorance and Pent? You eventually reach
> Altinela, which I've always thought was warm. Is there anything in
> between?
Nowadays a cold desert, with conditions similar to Mars (except atmospheric pressure) on bad days and cold days in the Gobi on better days.
When Valind's Glacier extended further south, it would have extended further east about the same amount. Not the same thickness as in the northwestern heart of the glacier, but enough to produce vast amounts of loess which make the pentan grasslands so good pasture when humidity and temperature allow it.
>> The outer northern shore will be a raging current, probably with >> crushed ice aheaving on the waves. There is likely to be sea-life, >> and likely also intelligent sea-life. Probably niiads rather thanlesser
> Along Valind's Glacier there will be ice, but what about when
> Valind's Glacier ends?
When very cold conditions and sea water meet, ice is bound to be generated.
It is true that the sea currents (moving north in the far east) start out warm, after all Togaro is but a branch of Sramak's River carrying up from the boiling sea south of the Nargan. However, once it reaches past far east of the Vormaino archipelago, it is no warmer than the western Pamaltelan coast (Umathela, a land of deciduous forests) or the Rozgali Sea. Kahar's Sea (and Fog) indicate somewhat moderate temperatures giving off moisture to slightly colder air (although the fog behaves as if it had roots in the sea, ducking before the wind but never completely blown away). Koromondol should have sea water temperatures little higher than Fronela.
>> There might be remnants of pre-darkness "civilizations". Antigod >> strongholds from the Darkness, too. It wasn't always cold in the >> north. >> Before the Sky Dome was pushed into rocking, and then spillingheat
> I hadn't heard of the Ratites before. Sounds interesting.
They appear on the God Learner Maps of the Golden Age, beyond Rinliddi.
Greg Stafford:
> Altinela is the last land of the north. Beyond lies the questionable
> "edge of the world" whose substance is often insubstantial, whose
> reality is often unreal and whose existence is often inexistent. The
> variable reality is pretty much stopped by the presence of Altinela
and
> its many residents (who are the minor children of the gods and
spirits
> etc., essentially a mixed race of demigods.)
I had the impression that Altinela lies somewhat in the middle of the "square edge", i.e. north of the Glacier if its edge continues northeasterly from the White Sea.
One of the God Learner Maps shows how Wakboth and his chaos host clove a path through the Glacier. I sort of have the impression that Altinela sits pretty much across that path, probably emplaced there by the forces of the Compromise. The Glacier won't expand northward, across the mountain range there, but might well pile up to Greenlandscale mightiness.
Me:
>> The outer northern shore will be a raging current, probably with
>> crushed ice aheaving on the waves.
Greg:
> It is not necessarily cold and icy there. It is supernaturally
strong
> and raging, being the ocean that is between reality and the Void,
hence
> partially unreal inexistent, etc.
I won't argue against this for Sramak's River itself (which is infinitely wide towards the north and the south of the Lozenge, as well as to the east and west), but I expect that the coastal areas (especially those further east, where I expect the coastal line to curve sourthward) will be less afflicted than the area in the Chaos corridor.
>> There is likely to be sea-life, and likely also >> intelligent sea-life. Probably niiads rather than lesser triolini, >> along with types of whales, seals, fish and crustaceans >> unknown in other seas, characteristic to the north face of >> the cube swimming in Sramak's Ocean.
> Not necessarily wrong, but it is inhabited by many chaotic like
things
> that live in the never-ever land between reality and chaos/void.
True, I sort of "forgot" about the purpose of the Altinelan "Watch on the Sramak" (cue Wagnerian orchestral fanfares, and all).
But then, the question was about the northeast of the continent, which is less directly in the path of that Chaos. Instead (or as a different manifestation thereof), it had the Vithelan Antigods, starting with Dogsalu IIRC. Perhaps not on the northern shore, but why not?
As a side issue, how far down into the Sea does this influence reach? I picture all four of the vertical sides of the cube that is Gloranthan Earth as inhabited by niiadic tribes largely unknown to Inner World Triolini, and the bottom side (broken as all of these might be) by an ecology springing from Varchulanga rather than Tholaina, possibly already into the really deep sea of Manthi and Natea - the Seas version of the Underworld.
I'm intrigued by the notion of the Outer World having seas broken by land and lands broken by sea in the same place. I guess it becomes a matter of approach (and passing tests correctly) to find either sea or land, depending on one's means of travel as obstacle or as passage. RuneQuest 3 Glorantha Book and / or Elder Secrets described the Outer World as similar to the Sky World and the Hero Planes (the latter of the Inner World).
(Coming to think of it, the deepest Sea and the Underworld are known to have coexisted forever - the trolls left Wonderhome on generally dry paths, and that was in the Darkness, beneath the Seas. Of course, the Spike still existed back then, but the deepest cellars of the Castle(s) of Lead still have stairways leading there unhindered by any layer of water, except maybe the Styx crossings.)
>> There might be remnants of pre-darkness "civilizations". Antigod >> strongholds from the Darkness, too. It wasn't always cold in the north.
> But it was in the Storm and Darkness Ages.
With the possible exception of Chaos unreality sweeping in, cutting through the Glacier (interrupting its feed to the east, thereby creating the icy desert as Cold (as a force of Cosmos rather than Chaos) reasserted itself.
Ratite Empire
>> Bird folk, maybe like keets, maybe
>> like humans or nar sylla, or maybe just sentient birds.
> Like all of them, and other things too. Imagine if all the natural
and
> supernatural niches of ecology and imagination were filled by avian
> things instead of mammalian things...
This may sound stupid, but does this apply to plant life as well? At least, what kind of plants would we have to expect there? (Playing with the mental image of all leaves being downy, or at least structured like ferns, etc..)
Were any bodies of water involved, too?
The first part of the TV show "The Future is Wild" (a "what if evolution continues after a setback eradicating mankind" thought experiment by biologists) featured the Gannetwhale - a whale- or walrus-like descendants of gannets, and the Spink - underground molequails, which give a good insight on how birds can occupy strange ecological niches. These two examples actually may have survived from the Ratite era, due to similarities in their survival scenario with the history of North Pent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_is_Wild
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Future_Is_Wild_species#Gannet
whale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Future_Is_Wild_species#Spink
http://www.thefutureiswild.com/
(you'll have to click through:)
future worlds -> 5 million years -> north european ice -> gannetwhale
future worlds -> 5 million years -> north american desert -> spink
>> Apart from antigods, I don't expect any of the hypothetical old
dwellers
>> to be alive, but they might manifest as wraiths or similar.
> You'd mentioned hidden and lost relics of these elder creations
> surviving in crevices or safe zones protected by prehistoric powers.
> Great ideas.
I was challenged recently about when I last produced newbie-friendly, gaming-oriented ideas. Somehow, whenever the far north of Glorantha is mentioned, these seem to come up.
This is my way of producing scenario- (or campaign-) settings from background research. Now I need to know more about northern Kralorela to be able to write about two rivalling expeditions for lost artifacts in that region, one sponsored by Can Shu the Glory of Ignorance (relying on trollkin as bearers, food etc), the other by an exarch or a group of mystics from Kralorela (using the Zombie approach). And possibly a few intrepid Sword Sages, Chernan Seekers and their guards (and/or a mix of Irrippi Ontor scholars and Rindliddi bird revivalists) hired from lush Lur Nop to accompany the Kralori.
This might even work as a freeform...
TTrotsky:
> To be sure; but its possible to do a rough map based on the existing
> one published in RQ2. Which will then be... well as useful as that
one
> was, for what that's worth :)
> I've now finished this. In addition to Greg's caveats about the land
> itself shifting, there's always the possibility that the old RQ2 map
> contains ideas since superseded. And, of course, I've had to guess
at
> the extent of the Glacier, since it isn't shown. But, with that in
> mind, this is more or less what it showed, for those who haven't
seen
> it before.
My first reactions:
- the White Sea appears to be too wide, North Pent too narrow
- the Glacier extends far out onto the Western Ocean (yet...)
I'd also have expected Altinela somewhat further east, about north of Thunder Delta.
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