Re: Thief saints in Seshnela

From: Greg Stafford <Greg_at_eQ82t45ucmy5jqj4Jt-m1vSUZi6Gc53J8TD1RDJegyEQOyN25DyyM5FhFudfT67D8B1aAvp>
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:07:24 -0800

YGWV vesa.randelin wrote:

> But for these thieves a good thief is a thief who doesn't leave any
> signs of his visit. The victims of the theft notice it when they see
> something of theirs missing. Corpse on a scene, well that's not very
> professional for a good thief. Of course these thieves fight when they
> have to, to defend themselves.

I think it worthwhile to make a distinction here on the use of the world "good."

Sure, a good thief is one who leaves no races, etc. but this does not make him morally good, which is what the Church is all about.

> Sure there is those thieves too who are seen as those "common
> criminals", they murder if they have to etc. but they are not part of
> this certain guild I am going to have my players in.

It is also useful to make a distinction concerning the use of the word Saint.

Normally, a "real saint" is one who is sanctioned by the Church. The Church, whether Rokari or Hrestoli or some obscure church, does not sanction theft. God or bad, protection of property rights is pretty standard for mainstream religions.

NOW, it is certainly possible that an ancient hero stole back some important things and brought them back to Malkion. Quite likely, really, during the Gods War. And thus such a person could have been sanctified, and be known within the Church as an official Saint, be included in worship, be part of the chain of Veneration, etc.

BUT, certainly the Church would put restrictions on this. That is, "You can steal, but only for us, the Church, the representatives of Malkion Himself."

THAT SAID, it would still be possible for your guild thieves to worship this official entity, and steal from the rich burghers on the side. He would be doing wrong, of course, but then, "who among us is not a sinner?"

As we know, this thief can't be caught by the priests going to the saint and asking if anyone is doing wrong. There might be really subtle ways to discover whether someone is worshipping him (maybe, like, going to the Saint Plane and somehow or other taking inventory of where the power is coming from. It wouldn't reveal who was doing the veneration to him, etc. but might alert authorities.)

Ah, if I were said Malkioni priest I would declare a special worship session for the saint, and have my friendly church wizards put restrictions on it that would reduce the subsequent effectiveness of worship for anyone who did not attend. Then see who shows up.

The point of this speculation is that if it's an "official saint" of the Church, the thief can be discovered.

SO, if you want a "for real saint" you can have it, but it'd probably be outside of the Church. It could even be its own little church, "the congregation of 'What's Yours Is Mine'," or something. Basically, an outlaw church, sure to be bused for heresy if ever discovered.

Alternately, it could be set up to a node with an ancient thieving sorcerer, who would grant his spells in return for worship. Again, a heretical church.

> But to now to
> think about these "golden rules" of this guild, I really think I
> should try to make a real saint as the source of their powers. These
> rules of the guild then comes from the past, and thieves gain the
> powers of this saint only when they follow these rules.

The key to this is, as usual, that the rules only apply to members of the guild, or the church. It is that age-old issue of "us and them." You know how it is not necessary for anyone to treat foreigners with honor, for instance (unless their honor is recognized as being the same as ours.) So your thieves would probably not be allowed to lie to each other, but lying to outsiders would be just fine.


    Greg Stafford
    President, Issaries. Inc.

Love without reserve, 
Enjoy without restraint, 
Live without dead time.


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