Re: Why is Kargzant a Spirit?

From: Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_UjoEnirmHj_nO4qS_IIUcoxGBw512fXhj1chGJ-lW3qPNgZuPhPXDzuco4SiyVne>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:25:53 -0800 (PST)


Since I only really know about Prax, I'll confine my comments to the Storm Bull questions.

Richard Hayes:

> Is there a 'god' Urox and a 'great spirit' Storm Bull, which are distinct and located in different realms,

No. It is the same entity. There are very few of these types of entities. They used to be called defiant entities. They all have unique stories that explain why they are not bound solely to one otherworld. Storm Bull / Urox / St. Taurox is one. His story is that he fought the Devil and was ripped to pieces and ripped out of his otherworld. Another might be the Black Eater. Its story is that it preceded any division between the otherworlds. I dunno about that one, but it could be true in someone's Glorantha. Another might be the Red Goddess, but i think she's "really" a goddess. Of course, you could create a chaotic entity that is defiant, since chaos defies classification. But Storm Bull is the big example.

> each of which reflect something fundamental about a particular kind of harsh wind/storm?

Yes. One of Storm Bull's manifestations is the desert storm -- deadly, scouring the chaos from the land.  
> Are both Urox and Storm Bull believed to be related to Orlanth?

Yes. During the first age, the Praxians discovered that the Heortlings kew a lot about a god they called Urox. The Praxians recognized him as Storm Bull. They exchanged stories so thoroughly -- and proved them on the hero plane so many times -- that the exact origin of some stories is no impossible to determine. (Unless, of course, you want to in your game!)

> I remember it being said once before in this group that Eiritha is known, and acknowledged as related to Ernalda, but not worshipped in Sartar.

I think that is right. There are first age connections to the big earth temple in Esrolia. That temple went through a phas where it sent people (something between missionaries and ambassadors, I guess) to the Paps. That tradition still lives on. The Ernaldans say that Eiritha is some sort of daughter. The Praxians disagree. But they both acknoweldge that the descent of earth goddesses is incomprehensible to mere mortals, so their disagreements don;t matter.

> Alternatively are the God World and the Spirit World not wholly separate-- that if one were to draw the material world and
>the other worlds, it would look more like a Venn diagram rather than clean strata separating each of the other worlds?
> Is there a grey area where  the two overlap, and where entities that seem to have a foot in both camps (like Urox/Storm Bull) reside?

I don't really think so. The Eternal Battle is a place you can visit in any otherworld. (Though most people wouldn't be crazy enough to do so.) If you are an animist and you go there, you can identify other animists individually, but not theists or sorcerers -- your spirit sense magic doesn't work on them that way. Instead, you see legions of sorcerers and hordes of theists. And you can't see the way out to their otherworlds. Again, it is like trying to see without eyes. There is only one way in and out for any one person.

When I think of what happens when a person looks at the sun (apart from going blind) is that they see the magical things that they are equipped to see. The animists see the sun spirit. The theists see the sun god. They are like overlapping transparent slides, with the same-sized circle drawn on all of them. But any one person can only see the circle drawn on one of the slides. (And the hero plane may reflect the dominance of one of those otherworlds in certain areas. For example, I understand that the sky in the hero plane is mainly theistic in nature, though maybe that has changed.)

The notion of a overlapping Venn diagram describes quite well the Praxian stories about Storm Bull and the Heortling stories about Urox.

Todd Gardiner:
> I don't know if he is one individual that is found in both otherworlds, if
> one is a shadow of the other, or if he is an air spirit (or god) that is
> worshiped with "misapplied" worship by some. No doubt there are differing
> opinions on this in Glorantha.

I don't think it is any of these. It is the same entity. Any form of worship works for him. But note that he is so broken that his nature is slightly different on the various otherworlds. Only in Prax is he strongly associated with sand storms, fatherhood, or the love of a husband for his wife, for example. From a sociologist's or God Learner's perspective, other gods and saints perform those roles in non-Praxian societies (for which, they would be eternally thankful if they only knew what they were missing).

Peter Metcalfe:

> [Storm Bull and Urox] are now recognized as being the same
> deity but back in the Good Old Days, they weren't.

I agree. This was probably a Dawn Age event for the Heortlings, maybe later or never for Orlanthi further afield. And most worshippers of St. Taurox have probably never heard of the Storm Bull of Prax.

> Urox is [believed to be related to Orlanth] but the more traditional
> Praxians don't really believe that Storm Bull is.

I think Praxians see it as not being proven. If you go on all of the Storm Bull hero quests that Praxian Bullmen do, you will never discover that Storm Bull is Orlanth's brother. But, the Praxian Bullmen know that Urox is how the Orlanthi know Storm Bull, and THEY swear that Urox is Orlanth's brother, and Praxian Bullmen trust the Uroxi with their lives and beasts, secrets and spirits. So, the Praxian Bullmen accept this proposition, but don't know it for true in their hearts, Hence the jokes about Orlanth being the Little Brother.

Greg sez:

> And there was a great female earth spirit too. Never heard of her?
> That is because chaos got her--there is nothing left, not even a memory.

Hmm. If that's true, then I need to modify some of what I've written about megaliths in the Wastes. There are two at the key point, not one.

> [Storm Bull] is a violator of boundaries, a breaker of the ordinary
> a being thing unclassifiable under known categories.

Or, in a word, defiant.

> BTW, it is impossible to enter into the Eternal Battle from the Spirit Plane
> and exit into the God Plane or Essence Plane, and vice versas.
> Many have tried. The distraction of seeking something other than the Eternal
> Battle itself has ALWAYS proved fatal, except for those 85% that simply
> disappeared, joining the crashing debris in little pieces.

I don't think that something necessarily distracts them, though I take the point: if you spend your time in the Eternal Battle doing anything other than fighting chaos, you get dead nearly instantly. From my perspective, that has to be combined with the explanation that you can't find those other ways out. If it was easy (or even possible) to see the way from the Eternal Battle to someone else's otherworld, you could just conduct a fighting retreat, or have someone else do a diversion, or do whatever else creative PC's think up. I say that you simply can't find the way. And it is really dangerous to even try, because of the nasty chaos thing that will eat your spirit while you try.

Chris Lemens

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