Re: S:KoH Nandan?

From: julianlord <julian.lord_at_RVAnfDwnyFWitCq4ONj74rnJfZviIYkPGlNxEcLD3KHa8xuYrk9UTPKOestpgMl7>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 23:04:49 -0000


Ryan :

There was a lot of discussion of this on the old Glorantha Digest list and the Hero Wars (now HQ) lists when Thunder Rebels was first released.

And there are also several differing opinions on how to use this sort of thing in a game, with some preferring a more moderate approach, others a more extreme one.

One thing is clear though, the question is complex, moreso than can be properly expressed in the space that has been devoted to it in official publications, and it is unlikely ever to be fully explained in future official publications either. Nor likely even in these lists.

However, there are two kinds of gender switching involved, both of which can be found among the Orlanthi.

The first, is that your sexual identity is the opposite of the body that you were born with ; the other, is that your sexual identity is the same as your bodily one, but you work in a field normally belonging to the other sex.

To add to that, not everything is equal cult-wise, there isn't an evenly distributed and rationally designed spread of cults that everyone can find perfect self-expression in, so that the principle cult for women to be like men is centred on the men's work of warfare, whereas the principle cult for men to be like women is for men who *are* women.

Yes there are people who are left out by this reality, but that doesn't mean they're left out by the culture.

> "Nandan is the god worshipped by women who are
> born in the shape of men. Many people do not understand this... Worshippers:
> Women who have the shape of men. Membership Requirements: Must be a woman born
> into a manā€™s body."
>
> Personally, I don't like this interpretation.

YGWV, but as I understand it, the Nandan subcult as described in Thunder Rebels is very much a local Sartar version, whereas Nandan provides for a wider range of male feminity in his larger Esrolian cult -- but I may be wrong about that, as there's never been anything official along those lines.

> IMG, Nandan is exactly reciprocal
> to Vinga, and instead both male and female transgenders find their place with
> Heler (since s/he is the sexually-ambiguous, shapechanging hermaphrodite
> god/dess)

hrm, I've discussed this aspect of Heler with quite a few people on a fair number of occasions, and the way that I see it Heler's worshippers range from males to females via all kinds of inbetweenies.

Having said that, Heler's cult is relatively smaller in Sartar than in other Orlanthi lands, for various reasons, including meteorological ones, one effect of which is that there is a greater proportion of sexually ambiguous Heler worshippers in Sartar than elsewhere (because the proportion of sexually ambiguous vs. non-ambiguous remains the same as in other Orlanthi populations, but the cult that they naturally join is much smaller than elsewhere, so that they comprise a far larger proportion of the worshippers).

Conversely, in Maniria, where the cult is much larger, there is a correspondingly wider variety of people belonging to the cult, including for example many ordinary farm people relying on the rain god and his magic for their crops raising, and not having an ambiguous bone in their body.

Now, I think you can find these other types of Heler worshippers in Sartar as well, either native Sartarites who just view things a little differently or player character types and whatnot, or travelling Helerings from the South, following Heler's non-sedentary ideals, but this does not change how the cult (and the god) is viewed in Sartar, nor the nature of most of his worshippers there.

To get back a little more on topic, there may be some similar variations in the Nandan cult of Sartar, and after all, not everyone in a cult or subcult needs to have the same level of devotion to its ideals. I'm sure there must be some Nandani men, who may belong to another cult or subcult simultaneously, who may participate in the women's rites albeit never too deeply, and have more complex social roles and identities than the basic "women in men's bodies" existence of most Nandani. And it's certainly permissible for them to marry Vingans and whatnot besides...

My basic point being really, that whilst the very nature of divine worship among the Orlanthi *does* encourage conformity and identity with the preponderant stereotypes, freedom and personal choice remain very strong values, and there remain a wide range of choices to join various cults no matter what your exact sexual and social identity may actually be. There are some taboos to be absolutely respected, but these are typically quite clearly detailed in the cult write-ups.

Orlanthi do not *HAVE* to adhere to the most idealistic expression of the cults that they belong to, with some notable exceptions (Eurmal, Humakt, Chalana spring to mind), and they usually have plenty of wiggle room to make their own comfortable living space.

That doesn't mean there's absolute freedom in all things of course, Ernalda isn't a cult for strong warlike men, nor Orlanth one for young pregnant women, it just means that the cults and subcults that are particularly welcoming of people with whichever variant sexual identities are unlikely to require the strongest possible taboos concerning them.

Julian Lord            

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